Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:14 Welcome everyone to this special edition of the Fremantle press podcast. My name is Helen Milroy and I love kids books. I'm also very happy to be hosting this podcast today because I also like listening and hearing from really fabulous and interesting authors and illustrators. Today, we're going to talk to one of the creators of the graphic novel stars in their eyes writer. Jessica Walton, Jessica Walton is a queer disabled writer and teacher. She is the author of picture book. Introducing Teddy Ennis featured in the anthologies. Meet me at the intersection Fremantle press 2019 and growing up disabled in Australia, black ink books, 2020. Welcome to today's podcast.
Speaker 2 00:00:56 Thank you very much for having me,
Speaker 1 00:00:58 Jess. I'm wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself now. You're not a Perth local where I'm sitting at the moment. So where are you?
Speaker 2 00:01:05 I'm in Melbourne. So I grew up in the inner north of Melbourne and moved to the <inaudible>. So that's as far as I've made it so far.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 So what books do you remember reading as a kid?
Speaker 2 00:01:17 I remember reading, um, a lot of Janie baker and Ellison Lista, um, Bob Graham, when I was little. Um, and then I think the, the ones that stand out once I moved into Cardiff middle grade and were Anna Green Gables, I was given that when I was taking hospital 10 and that was kind of the defining series of that kind of point in my life. Um, and then I became obsessed with Isabel comedies over Newton series. And I think I probably read a lot of John Mazda and at the time Paul Jennings for a whole lot of sort of collections of funny short stories. And I was very into those, um, and selling Wilkins, my place, um, which I read as a teenager. Yeah, lots of great Australian office,
Speaker 1 00:02:05 Huge range of books and authors and different styles of writing, I should say. What was your favorite book? Was there a standout in all of that
Speaker 2 00:02:14 Choice? I think it was called by Justin Garda. So, um, and the <inaudible> series were really big for me and I really liked that. Um, there were some disabled characters in there as well. I hadn't seen anything in terms of disability in the books that I'd read before that. Uh, and there was also killing the young by Wendy, or I read that one when I was sick. I think the character had a car accident and they were healing from that accident. So I think I kind of related to that character a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:02:42 It sounds like you were really looking to find yourself in some of those books.
Speaker 2 00:02:47 Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I also just love seeing, um, you know, a lot of the TV shows that I was watching growing up were American and I think that's an experience a lot of Australian have. So I also really loved reading books by Australian authors because it was nice to see your own kind of place reflected in the books that you were reading too. And the, you know, the familiar locations and, um, the language you're used to and all that stuff, things. So, yeah, I think that everyone's takes representation of the things they know and their experiences in literature and film and TV.
Speaker 1 00:03:24 Why do you think that's important for children to have that representation
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Because it's that idea that who you are is good and valuable and valid and, and that you have a place in society because you know, you're looking at film and TV and books as kind of this reflection of the world that you're living in. And so if you're not in that world, you know, in those books and TV shows and you start to wonder why you're not in them. And so I definitely, so I became disabled and then later as I came out as queer, um, you know, I, I felt the lack of it. Um, and later on, as an adult, when I did sort of get a lot more representation, um, particularly our own voices representation where it felt really authentic, there was that emotional feeling of, oh, I didn't have this. And now I do. And I'm sad for the kid that I was, who didn't have enough representation, but I'm really happy as an adult. It's very healing to read those stories now. So
Speaker 1 00:04:23 Sounds like having that representation helps you to connect emotionally to the stories as well.
Speaker 2 00:04:28 Yes, absolutely. It's good to read about other people's experiences too. So I mean, having a, a multitude of authors, you know, writing from their experiences and, you know, a range of characters that reflect the diversity of societies is really important. And I don't think we're there yet. It's getting
Speaker 1 00:04:48 So learning about yourself, learning about others, how we all connect together somehow makes for a better world. Absolutely. How did you become interested in, in writing sort of what age did you start thinking about stories or how did it have,
Speaker 2 00:05:00 And for you? I really wanted to be a writer as a kid. Um, I think that's the case for a lot of writers, but, um, I remember when I was looking at doing creative writing in high school, um, I was steered away from that by a curious counselor who was sort of like, well, if you want to Korea as a writing, you better do journalism. And I did a year of, of a journalism course and sort of felt, no, this is not right to me. Um, or at least not at this point in my life and, and dropped out of that. So I think, you know, it would have been nice if I'd been encouraged to do creative writing. Cause that was my, my heart sort of was, but I came back to it eventually. And I had a lot of great life experiences before I came back to it.
Speaker 2 00:05:41 It was actually when I was at home for a few months with, um, my oldest when he was, uh, filed and one of my moms had come out as trans and I really wanted a picture book that kind of really easily and gently explore gender identity for very young children. And I couldn't really find that at the time. It turns out there were some, some books out there, but they were just really difficult to find. So write the story that I thought I needed for my family. And because I, oh, I'm not great at illustrating. I sought out an illustrator and I really wanted to pay him for his work. And so that's how we ended up putting it on Kickstarter to try and raise some funds, to pay the illustrator and pay, to publish the book. And I thought, perhaps with crowdfunding, we might get enough to publish a small print run and send it out to a few people that would be interested, but it just took off. And we started getting orders internationally and we had some help from Neil Gaiman. Actually, he was one of my favorite authors. He tweeted about the Kickstarter and that was what led to a lot of the UK press getting in touch. And, um, things just kept rolling from there.
Speaker 1 00:06:50 Yeah. So a level of success, you never expected starting out on this.
Speaker 2 00:06:54 Definitely not. We ended up getting a call from a us agent who signed us and then she sold the book to a us publisher. And so all of a sudden it was just something I had never expected. And I was working in the public service at the time, you know, and had never really thought that that career as a writer would happen to me. So it was just a bit of a dream come true. And definitely not something I was expecting to come out of that book. So yeah, it was delighted.
Speaker 1 00:07:21 So it sounds to me like you were already working in a different job, but had this amazing success with your first book, which is a little bit unusual. So did that really give you the courage then to take a leap of faith?
Speaker 2 00:07:34 Yeah. As I started working as a casual relief teacher again, and, um, you know, I really loved that job getting to work with primary school and high school kids. And I feel like that's a really good thing for my kids author to be in touch with, you know, a whole range of kids and what they're reading. I started writing other stories and, and one of the first things I wanted to do was write myself into a story. And I was lucky that I was approached to write to maybe at the intersection. So I was able to, um, start with that, you know, very supportive group of people working on such a beautiful collection of stories. And I'm so happy to be a part of that book.
Speaker 1 00:08:11 GSM. Do you follow a particular creative process when you're developing a story? Where does it come from?
Speaker 2 00:08:18 I don't really have a creative process. I'm a very chaotic person. I have a couple of mental illnesses and also chronic pain and, you know, juggling two kids and, you know, various jobs in teaching and, you know, whatever work I can pick up in public speaking and writing. And yeah, I just been in writing where I can, I often hear the advice, you know, write every day. And I just think that's not really stick, especially for people who are juggling, you know, a couple of jobs or who have kids or, um, who have disabilities or health issues that mean writing every day is just not a reality. And I think it's nice to be kind to yourself and say, look, you know, as long as I'm writing, I'm a writer. So, you know, even if that means I'm writing once a month, um, or I'm writing a short story when I'm approached to do that, or I'm writing something longer when I can make time in my life to do that. Um, I think that's a very healthy approach to have. And so that's the advice that I usually give people is just write when you can and be kind to yourself about, it
Speaker 1 00:09:17 Sounds like you might also write from
Speaker 2 00:09:18 The heart I'm writing characters that I want to see more of in the books that, that I give my own children. And also again, giving myself that kind of healing experience of reading myself in stories. So usually when I'm writing, I've got a real purpose in mind and it's something that somebody liking forward the may or all my children or family or friends. So that's kind of what motivates me to write.
Speaker 1 00:09:41 So how did you get up the confidence to sort of put your stories out there when they're so close and personal like that they almost feel like they're your child or baby or something. And how did you feel kind of putting it out there and getting other people's views on, on your stories?
Speaker 2 00:09:57 I don't know that I think of them as my babies so much. I think like a lot of writers I'm, I have a lot of trouble believing in my abilities as a writer. And so, uh, when I was writing to make me at the intersection, it was my first time writing a short story for publication. And, um, I was really unsure that I had what it took to write something other than a impeachable. Um, so a picture book, I felt like I could write it in the kind of way hours between looking after Barb. And that was a very different experience to sitting down, to write a short story specifically for publication, you know, with introducing Teddy, I didn't know where it was going to go. And it was really just a book for me and mine that ended up taking off. I ended up, you know, needing a lot of help, I guess, to believe in myself enough to keep the short story in the anthology.
Speaker 2 00:10:43 I remember, um, getting in touch with the ambulance and saying, um, you know, I've got to pull this story. It's no good. It's just not going to be good enough in time. Ambling Cremona was really important to me in that process in terms of, um, giving me self-belief and supporting me through the process of writing and editing and then keeping my story in the collection until publication. So another message to authors out there, or people who would like to be authors is try to believe in yourself, try to be kind to yourself when you sent something in for publication and accept, help, you know, work with the people who are in the industry, the editors that you get paired with, you know, the people who know how to make your work shine as well as it can. Because again, with this story, I didn't expect it to go on the journey that it did. I never thought it would go from being a short story to being a graphic novel. Yeah. And it was because the people who helped me along the way with that short story, that it's turned into what it is now.
Speaker 1 00:11:41 So it takes a lot of trust, both in yourself and in others to make these things happen.
Speaker 2 00:11:47 Yes. And every time I do get to publication, I'm always so proud and delighted have that finished product. So, you know, stick with it and keep trying and keep believing in yourself. And if you have a setback, then just keep going, keep moving forward. Every, every little thing you get published, every short story, every poem, every picture book is another step along the way of becoming a writer. So
Speaker 1 00:12:11 It's a little bit of angst is worth it.
Speaker 2 00:12:15 I don't know that that the amount of aid staggered myself is totally with it. But even if you're feeling the angst, try and move past it and then ask for help from the people around you, who you have the experience and the knowledge to carry you through that moment.
Speaker 1 00:12:32 So tell us a little bit more about how you do collaborate with an illustrator. What's that like?
Speaker 2 00:12:37 Well, with introducing Teddy, I was so clueless. You know, I'd never written a book, let alone approached in illustrator. So the way I went about it was I got on Facebook and uh, I said, does anyone know an illustrator that I could work with? And my older brother said, oh, look, there's this guy on Instagram, he's in the tech community. And that was where my brother is working. And so he side, but on the side, he does these Instagram drawings of these kids and he's really talented. So I went and had a look and Dougal McPherson was, um, drawing these amazing pictures under the handles 15 minute drawings. And, um, there was this picture that I remember seeing of light coming through water. And I remember just thinking, wow, this is incredible. This guy can draw light coming through water. That just seemed amazing to me. And actually once we formed a partnership and worked on Teddy, I told him that that was the picture that really like grabbed me. And I now have that picture on our wall at home.
Speaker 1 00:13:35 I have to spend a sort of, a lot of time thinking about what it would look like, or was there more of a trust that he would come up with the right illustrations?
Speaker 2 00:13:43 I think I knew where my talents lay and where they didn't. So it was definitely a collaborative process. So, you know, there'd be things that I would imagine about the characters and we would talk about that. And, and thankfully, because we got to work together from scratch, he was able to also give feedback to me about writing. So, you know, if there was a line where he felt like he could really show what I was saying in the words, then we would sort of talk about it. And we actually had trained meetings. Um, we were on the same train line, so we'd be going into work and I'd get on at packing them and he'd get on a bit later. And then we'd sit on the train on the way to the city working on the, the picture book together. And, um, you know, that's, I guess that's not the usual process for collaborating with an illustrator and it has been good to also experience what it's like to work with someone who you're not on the same train line with where you're, you know, paired by a publisher and you work together and get to say this incredibly talented person that you didn't know about or have a working relationship with.
Speaker 2 00:14:44 And then all of a sudden you're working with them and emailing each other and sharing ideas. And yeah, that was really amazing with this graphic novel, getting to work with Ashtor.
Speaker 1 00:14:53 So what was that like
Speaker 2 00:14:54 The excitement of being someone who doesn't illustrate and then getting to see your story kind of coming to life that's what is really similar about both experiences is not being an artist and getting to see an artist kind of bring these characters.
Speaker 1 00:15:07 Hello. People often say, you can, you can read the story through words, or you can read the story through the pictures. Did that feel like that really jelled for them?
Speaker 2 00:15:15 I can't even imagine really writing a full book without illustrations. Now they go so well together. And even when I wrote a short story for a collection called funny bones, Dougal illustrated, it did these like tiny illustrations throughout this kind of middle grade short story for me, because I just couldn't imagine the story without the pictures. It's kind of sad that we lose the illustrations as we move into adult fiction. And non-fiction, I feel like my favorite books, always the graphic novels and picture books and middle grade books that have illustrations throughout them, that it would be really nice if they could just be even an occasional illustration kind of showing the character.
Speaker 1 00:15:54 I think you've helped me work out why I don't read many adult novels because there's no pictures.
Speaker 2 00:15:58 Yeah, that's right. My kids look at my, my books and they're like, why are there any pictures? You know, the ones that I'm reading on my show. Yeah. They don't understand why. And I think that's a very, it's a good question.
Speaker 1 00:16:11 It is. Did you have many careers? I know you were, you were a teacher. Did you try any other sort of career paths and a little bit of journalism? Maybe?
Speaker 2 00:16:18 No. When I was younger, I did singing lessons with an opera teacher and I thought I might be an opera singer. And I got into the audition when I was 17. And, um, I froze and I couldn't do anything. And they said, look, maybe come back when you've had a few more years of experience. And you know, I think they must've thought, what was I doing there? I've got everything on you. And I'd been training, you know, I think about four years at that stage. And if I wasn't so terrified, perhaps I could have been an opera singer, but I'm kind of glad that didn't work out because I think going to uni and studying journalism was where I met my wife. So I was only there for a year, but I think that was an incredibly with while the experience, because I met the love of my life there, you know, I dropped out and did some politics, which was a very interesting experience. I was, um, a lead Senate candidate for the Democrats in Victoria. And then I worked in admin for a while, did an arts degree, studied Arabic and feminism and children's literature and then decided, okay, maybe I'll do teaching. So I think I've conceded lots of things.
Speaker 1 00:17:29 Great inspirations for some of your books.
Speaker 2 00:17:32 Absolutely. I don't often see part-time work in <inaudible> and I think that'd be a really fun thing to explore. Now. I just want to try every kind of writing. I've done a bit of poetry with writers, Victoria. Um, and I wrote for get cracking, um, which you know, was unexpected, but as soon as it came along, I thought, yes, I'm going to try to be writing. So I think now that I'm here finally in this writing career, I want to try every kind of writing there is. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:55 Have you had any setbacks, have you had times when you thought it's all too hard?
Speaker 2 00:17:59 I think a lot of writers juggle some other kinds of work alongside writing. I think that can lead to sometimes adults telling kids don't do writing as a career because it's, you know, it's just too hard to make an income or to, to manage it. And what I would say is keep writing, keep your passion out and also have another idea about what sort of thing you might like to do, or a few ideas about what you might like to do, because you can do those things alongside writing. You know, I've done retail and teaching and ed me, and then all of those things have been worthwhile and all of them help with writing. Um, all of those life experiences contribute to your writing. So, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily to do other things alongside writing. Sometimes I feel like it would be nice if I could just write all day every day and just be a writer, but that's not the kind of world we live in. Uh, you know, we don't have a universal, basic income. And as I said, I think doing other things does contribute to writing. So I think I'll always be juggling something alongside it. And at the moment, a lot of what I'm doing is public speaking, which is great. So working in schools or, um, talking to organizations about disability or about LGBTQ issues. So I really enjoy that side of writing and they kind of feed off each other a little bit.
Speaker 1 00:19:14 So having a backup plan is a good safety net.
Speaker 2 00:19:16 Yeah. Having an alongside plan.
Speaker 1 00:19:19 Hmm. That's a good way to describe it. Actually. It sort of sits with you as opposed to is there to fall back on. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:19:24 Absolutely. And not thinking of it as a backup plan is I think a good thing, especially for young people sort of thinking about doing creative writing long term. So, you know, not thinking I have to do one or the other, but you can do lots of different.
Speaker 1 00:19:38 Thanks Jess. You've, you've had obviously some, some challenges in your life. How do you look after yourself? How do you keep yourself going
Speaker 2 00:19:45 When I'm having a bad pain day? You know, my mind is telling me are, you know, don't be lazy, you know, stopping silly, get out of bed, suck it up, do what you have to do today. And all that's going to do is make me feel terrible about myself because the pain is bad enough that I'm having trouble moving. And so being honest with myself and honest with other people as well about my pain or about, um, if I'm having a, a depression day as I call them, you know, I think I'm a bad mental health day. Being honest with other people and myself is important. You know, I might worry about other people judging me or not believing me. And that's what stopped me from being honest about it in the past. But I found the more honest I get about it, the better relationships I formed with people and anyone who does judge me or not believe me, they're not the kind of people that I want to be working with anyway.
Speaker 2 00:20:31 So if I'm just myself, fully myself, um, then hopefully I'll find people who understand and who I can work with, even though I have mental health problems. And even though I've got chronic pain, and even though I sometimes have mobility issues, my pain and my mental health don't stop me from being a writer, even if I can't write for a day because of those things, you know, I get through that day, I be kind to myself. I give myself the space I need and then I can, you know, keep writing, keep moving forward. So, um, that has been the most important thing. It's okay for me to have days where I just need to write myself off for a little bit and do some self-care and switch off from the world for a little bit. And then I'll be better when I come back and I'll be, I'll feel more able to write more able to answer emails.
Speaker 2 00:21:20 Um, and I also have, you know, strategies in place. Um, so you know, my partner and a friend of mine have an email address that they use to help me, um, when I'm really depressed and contents of emails. And so, you know, they actually get CC'd into some of my work emails. And so then they can give me a little hallway when something's really important and I need to respond ASAP. And that's been really important to me. All right. As know, you have a lot of admin relating to writing and sometimes that can be a little bit overwhelming. So having strategies in place to help me cope when I'm having a bad day, a bad pain day or a bad mental health day has been really important. You know, other strategies like having a veggie garden, I know that sounds a bit left of field, but for me having something that needs my attention that's outside, um, where the fresh areas, where the sunshine hopefully is those things to kind of coax me outside and just, um, help me feel a little bit happier and healthier,
Speaker 1 00:22:18 Uh, learning to be kind to yourself as a really important message
Speaker 2 00:22:22 Within the disability activist space. There really is a pushback on that idea. That to be valuable, you need to be really productive because, you know, we can't always be super productive and we are still valuable people regardless of how much we can produce. So when young people become disabled or a bond with a disability, they're often, um, you know, in a family of non-disabled people and we don't always get connected in with our community soon enough. So, you know, I've spoken to so many disability activists who have said, you know, it's only in adulthood when they get onto social media and connect with other disabled people that they really feel that sense, strong sense of community. Yeah. I'm really passionate about young people getting to not only see themselves in which Sharon and film and TV, but also, um, disabled, young people getting connected to community sooner, you know, losing a leg for at the time, it felt like this really scary isolating thing. But actually that was the moment when I became part of this beautiful community that has been so important to me. And I wish I had known that at the time.
Speaker 1 00:23:27 Yeah. Yeah. Really important. Messy. So Jess, what would you like either listeners or kids to take from your stories? What's, what's some of the take home messages from the books you've been writing or whoever they,
Speaker 2 00:23:39 They are as kids, they should be proud of who they are and proud of their family and community and, um,
Speaker 1 00:23:46 Yeah. And feel like they have a valued place in the world. Yeah. What about for parents? What, what sort of message do you want to get across for parents
Speaker 2 00:23:55 Diversify your kids? Book elections. That is, that is the thing I would like every parent to go and do is go and audit your kids' book collection and have a look at all your characters. What are all the families in your picture books, nuclear families are, do you have queer parents? Do you have single parents, your foster parents and your picture books? Your kids may not be part of those families or communities, but they will be interacting with people from those families and communities. And, um, your child might not be disabled now, but they might develop a disability at some point in their life or acquire disability. So, you know, making sure that they have picture books about disability is important and you know, there'll be interacting with disabled kids and, you know, as kids, we, we stare when we're curious and we ask questions when we're curious.
Speaker 2 00:24:40 So making sure that we give them the space to kind of explore that in literature and to be exposed to disability and literature and film and TV so that when they interact with disabled people in the real world, they're not doing it from a place of fear or, you know, massive curiosity where they're going to, you know, be staring at someone and peppering them with questions. Now we can actually, as parents do a lot to prepare our children for the diversity that exists in, in our community and in humanity and we have a responsibility to prepare them.
Speaker 1 00:25:11 I think storytelling is a wonderful way of introducing all of those concepts that you've just outlined. It's, it's a really gentle and lovely way for children to be able to learn and experience, um, and be ready. As you say, you be ready for when these things may happen down the track. So Jess, would you like to tell us a little bit about your book because stars in their eyes,
Speaker 2 00:25:31 It's about a young, disabled, we are teenagers. So they've just come out as BI they're an amputee with chronic pain. So just like me maze is 14 and is about to go, um, to a fan con her first fan convention with her mom who is also a giant fan of a whole lot of things. I try in the story to not show what it's like to be an amputee, to have anxiety, to have chronic pain. One of the most important relationships in the book is between Maisie and her mum. They're really close, like most moms and daughters. They, as well as being close, they also get on each other's nerves a little bit. There's been a teasing in there and there is something lovely that happens in the story. I really wanted to show a kind of first romance. So it's between Maisie and Ali and other character in the story.
Speaker 2 00:26:20 And, um, Ali is one of the volunteers at the fan con man. So they Maisie and Ali hit it off and they have a really cute, um, romance and I wanted to keep it very happy and, um, and light. And that's what I was going for is just this really nice experience, as well as showing some of the realities of, of Macy's experience as a disabled person and as a queer person as well. So they talk about the experience of kind of feeling isolated as young queer people, um, and then having that connection to community, uh, at the fan con, which is great,
Speaker 1 00:26:52 A really big story and lots of really important issues. Amazing given that it sounds a little bit semi-autobiographical, were you more concerned about how the images were going to be how you are going to be portrayed in all of this?
Speaker 2 00:27:06 Um, so we talked quite a bit about how, um, the disability that I had written would be represented in the illustration. Um, and Ashoka was great. There was this scene where Maisie gets out of the car. And so I videoed make getting out of the car and also getting up out of the chair to show Ashoka what that movement looks like to help with the illustration. Um, and we also did some walking, um, and so sharing videos of, of how I walk and how I move was a way to kind of show Ashkar, you know, how to illustrate those movements because that collaboration was so open and respectful. I didn't have any concerns at all about how that was going to be represented. And when I saw the illustrations, they were just beyond anything I'd imagined. You know, there are these scenes where Maisie is putting on her liner before she puts on her prosthetic leg or falling or wincing with pain. She has a panic attack, a moment of really strong anxiety and all of that was just represented so perfectly and so
Speaker 1 00:28:10 Beautifully. But that authenticity, that, that brings to it, to the actual final book is just fantastic.
Speaker 2 00:28:18 And I know that will matter to amputees or people with anxiety for reading the story too. It's not just about me feeling like I was being represented authentically, but no, when you see yourself in a story and you know, and it, it is like what you experienced, it's such a, um, a beautiful and joyful thing. So yeah, we, I think we were both, um, very keen to get it right. And I think Asher has done such an incredible job
Speaker 1 00:28:42 Sounds about that. Took a lot of trust and courage, but well done. If you enjoyed our chat today, subscribe to the Fremantle press podcast on apple podcasts, Google play, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Helen <inaudible> and I have been your host today. Join me next time. As we continue our journey into everything books,
