Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:12 Welcome to this special children's pitchable condition of the Fremantle press podcast. My name is Helen Milroy and I'm your host. Today. Today we're joined by a very special guest James Foley, author, and illustrator of many wonderful books, including chicken Saurus and Stella Effient. So James Foley makes children's books for children who read books. So if you're a child and you're eating his books, you're doing it wrong. James writes and draws. He gives talks and runs workshops. He even tells dead jokes. Legends say, James can grow a beard in an afternoon. He lives in Perth with his wife, son, and Labrador. He's a massive Marvel movie nerd and comes from a long line of cuing enthusiasts. Welcome James. Hi.
Speaker 2 00:01:01 Good. I just realized that I have to update that buyer because I have a daughter now. That's wonderful. Yes, it's it's early days, but she's sleeping relatively well and so away. So fingers crossed touch wood.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 As I put a little bit of a spanner in the creative for our work or not.
Speaker 2 00:01:16 No, no. I put the spanner in there myself. I've taken some time off. Uh, it's been really, really nice after a very, very busy three and a half odd years of pretty much constant back-to-back books. Um, just to take some time off, uh, I'll have about 12 weeks off all up once I go back to work. Really.
Speaker 1 00:01:33 So tell us a little bit about yourself. Are you a local or were you born elsewhere? Okay.
Speaker 2 00:01:37 It was always living around freer. I was born at a Woodside in east Frio. I lived in south Frio until I was about five and then moved to my grandparents' old house in east Frio. So that house has had four generations living, no five, actually five generations living here now, even lb Mar. So I've always been very close to Frio.
Speaker 1 00:01:57 What do you like so much about the area? Do you think?
Speaker 2 00:02:01 I guess I'm biased having, having grown up here, but I think it's just very chill out sort of place. I love that it's got the river running through it so much natural beauty to it. I love it. It's got lots of multicultural, um, beauty to it as well. I went to school here, so I went to school with lots of Italian guys and I love Italian food and Italian culture. And we're spoiled for choice with that here. And I just love that. It's a very sort of open-minded liberal, left leaning town as well. It just suits my politics pretty well.
Speaker 1 00:02:30 Sounds like it might be a little bit of a source of inspiration as well then.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 Yeah, well, I mean, there's lots of other authors and Australia's mates of mine who live around the area too. And my studio is here. And so not only is it sort of inspiring to just be living here, but it's inspiring to be around all of them as well. We all encourage each other a lot and um, yeah, it's, it's wonderful to have their support.
Speaker 1 00:02:54 So, James, what do you remember reading as a kid? Was there one that really stood out for you?
Speaker 2 00:02:59 The very earliest ones that I remember, uh, two wordless picture books by Jan ormrod that were released about the year of my birth, maybe a year after they called sunshine and Moonlight. And so they completely wordless multiple sort of pedals of illustrations on a poach. So really they kind of like comic books, but pitchable planks. They're the very first ones I remember. And because they didn't have any words, I could read them by myself, which is really nice. I could tell myself the story and they were really relatable. They were just about the morning and evening routines of a kid and her parents. Other than that, I remember reading grant-based books and Amelia and, um, the 11th hour and the 11th hour in particular, really stuck with me because it had all these puzzles and hidden details in it. It was just incredibly, incredibly detailed.
Speaker 2 00:03:48 So I spent many, many days out of holidays just pouring over this book and trying to find all the hidden Biddle messages after that. I remember coming across Shaun Tan's work. And yeah, I remember when his very first book from coming out and being so close to the literature center here in Fremantle, I was able to attend a bunch of talks that Sean tan did. They were supposed to be for teachers and published authors and Australia's, but you know, it was great to be able to sneak in the back there and, um, learn right from him just as he was starting out on his pitchable career. And he's been a huge inspiration, of course, not just to me, but to lots of us here. And then I was really into comic books as well. So asterix comics and Calvin and Hobbes comics, they will all be inspirations.
Speaker 1 00:04:32 That's a lot of books.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 It's a lot of books, but, you know, come around to my house. The entire wall was just covered in books. It's a bit ridiculous. We have too many, most people have a bedside reading par, but mine got too big and now it's underneath the bed. So,
Speaker 1 00:04:44 And what age do you think you became interested in writing and illustrating and how did that come about?
Speaker 2 00:04:51 I remember in grade one, whenever we had spare time, um, I was able to go and get some of the scrap paper and do drawings and start making up little stories. And I remember it was he the one or year two. I started writing my own version of one of the old ASAP fables, um, where the lion gets the thorn in his poor. And normally the mouse comes along and takes it out of his poor. But in my version, the lion is howling with pain. And with this thorn in his port and then down the jungle path comes walking a podiatrist and the podiatrist takes the phone out of his poor. And the only reason I had knew what a podiatrist was is cause that was my dad's job. I didn't think it was funny. I just thought it was what would be useful and practical to have it in the story. And then the teachers started giggling and passing it around and having a laugh. And I thought, oh, maybe there's something to this. I remember that as like a very barely bit of encouragement
Speaker 1 00:05:42 Sounds like it. And sounds like it was a real heat as well.
Speaker 2 00:05:45 Yeah, unintentionally. Um, and then my school was really great in that grade six in grade seven, they had us enter the, CBCAs make your own story, but competition. So back in 1994, when I was in grade seven, um, I managed to get a third prize in my category for my pitching book, which was a takeoff of Sherlock Holmes called fetlock mouse. And this was before and Stilton was a thing. So yeah, that was, that was a really huge encouragement. And so I'm always very grateful to the CBCA WWI branch for running that competition and for still running it. Now, it's just been such a huge encouragement to lots of people.
Speaker 1 00:06:26 James, I was intrigued by your comment about the first book that really meant something to you. And it was a, it was a book without words. So it was just pictures. How important do you think it is for kids to actually have just pure picture books so that they get that opportunity to make up their own story?
Speaker 2 00:06:46 I think particularly if kids are before the stage of being able to read words, I think it's really, really useful because they don't then have to feel intimidated by not being able to read the words. It makes it really, really accessible to them. Um, and so yeah, I think it would be really great. And one day I would like to make a wordless, uh, graphic novel, maybe a wordless picture book. The good thing about them too, is that they're really easy to translate.
Speaker 1 00:07:11 Sounds like a good idea. I think there is a tendency perhaps to put in too many words and you're right. It makes it very accessible if there's no words because the child can read whatever they like. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:07:20 But it does make an extra challenge for the illustrator because it suddenly means that there's, there's no writing for it to lean on. It has to be able to tell a story super clearly just by itself.
Speaker 1 00:07:30 So you're both an illustrator and a writer. Mm. How, how hard is that combination?
Speaker 2 00:07:36 Not hard at all? I don't think, um, I mean there's, there's pros and cons to being able to do both. If you can do the writing as well as the illustrating, then you get to kind of own the whole story and really mold it into exactly what you imagined it to be. And you can't do that if someone else the writer, but the advantage is if someone else is writing the story for you, then the pressure is off a little bit. You can just focus on the illustration and it kind of makes it a bit more straightforward.
Speaker 1 00:08:02 Have you done that at all in your career where you've had a joint process with someone else?
Speaker 2 00:08:07 Yeah, I've done both. So my very first published picture book with which was with Fremantle price and it was called the last Viking and that was written by Norman Jorgensen. Who's been a published author for a very long time here in WWI. And we worked on two of those books and we actually worked pretty closely through the process, throwing ideas for the words and the pictures back and forth between us, which is not the way that it normally happens. So when someone's making a picture book, when they're writing it, normally they write it, the words get sent to the publisher. If the publisher likes it, they edit it. And then the illustrators say, use those words. And normally the writer and illustrator don't even meet maybe until the launch, if that, um, but we actually threw ideas back and forth to start with. And the advantage was we probably were able to develop the ideas to a greater capacity than they might've been otherwise. You know, we can bounce ideas back and forth and really improve them. But the risk was that maybe prio would like the words, but not the pictures or the pictures, but not the words. And we were really lucky that they accepted both. So that was the start of my publishing journey that was contracted back in 2009 and published in 2011. And it's actually just coming up to its 10 year anniversary this year.
Speaker 1 00:09:23 Wow. So James, do you follow some kind of process when you're developing a story or developing an illustration that's come about,
Speaker 2 00:09:32 There's a rough kind of process and it's different for every book, but generally if it's an idea I'm coming up with, then it starts with an image. Um, usually a character is in the image and I've got a rough kind of sense of who this character is and what their story might be about, but it doesn't all fall into my lap all at once. It's usually just one really strong image that won't go away. Uh, and I know that it's going to be a story that I have to do if it doesn't go away for just hanging around. So I'll sketch it down. Um, and then I'll just do lots and lots and lots and lots of other sketches around it. Kind of just testing the options, seeing what works and what feels like it's part of this story of what feels like it's not.
Speaker 2 00:10:16 And once I've been brainstorming and dreaming and you know, daydreaming about this story for awhile, while I've been doing the dishes or driving the car or whatever, eventually even after several years, sometimes this story will feel like it starts to coalesce. And I've learned over time that it's probably not much point in me actually trying to write down the story until I really feel like I know what the beginning of the middle and the end is. Otherwise I end up just getting bugged, just spinning my wheels. So I remember I started trying to write my graphic novel robot came out in 2016. I started trying to write that years and years and years before. And I was trying to write it as a picture book and I wrote literally 50 different versions of the manuscript. And none of them worked. They were either incomplete or they just didn't quite make sense. They didn't click for some reason. And it wasn't until I realized, oh, actually I think there's more to this story. I think this is actually a graphic novel. It needs more room to breathe that it almost clicked instantly after that. So stories really do need time. At least in my process to percolate in my head first, before I start writing them down. And then once it's written, then I can start figuring out what other images might go with that. And then it flows relatively quickly after that.
Speaker 1 00:11:34 So it's not a process from the sounds of it. You have control over necessarily nor can rush. Is that a bit frustrating at times?
Speaker 2 00:11:42 It was when I started out more. So I've learned to accept it now. And also I always have multiple stories in on the back burner. So if I'm not thinking about one, I'm thinking about another and it doesn't matter if one of them isn't working, cause I can just work on something else instead. So yeah, when I was just starting out and I just wanted to get one book published, um, then it was a lot harder, a lot more frustrating, but now I just sort of go, you know, it doesn't matter. Whatever's going to happen next. It's going to happen. I've become a little more crazy in my middle age.
Speaker 1 00:12:16 So the writing and the illustrating process can feel very personal. How do you deal or how did you get used to dealing with sort of feedback about what you'd produced?
Speaker 2 00:12:26 I'm really lucky that I've worked with editors who are really, really nice and they really good at giving feedback. Um, I mean at first it was, it was really tough because I was, I mean, I've always been sensitive and I'm still sensitive, but I was like super sensitive when I first started out. And, and it was hard at first to, to understand that, um, sometimes what I thought was best for the story was probably not best for the story. The ideas of what's going to be best for the story might come from the editor or the image designer or my best friend or my wife or some random kid in the class, you know, um, the idea can come from anywhere. And so it doesn't just have to be me and I don't always know what's best for the story. Really. I can have a gut feeling, but it's not always going to be me. He knows exactly what's best. And that was important to sort of take the ego out of the equation. And so now it's a little bit easier to answer
Speaker 1 00:13:23 That that might involve a bit of trust then.
Speaker 2 00:13:25 Yeah. Trusting that the story knows what's best for it. And also trusting that the people that I'm working with also want what's best for the story that other people are not gonna take over, take it in directions that might not work. And also I know where my boundaries are too. I can, I've got a good gut feeling sense of when some suggestion might not work and when it needs to come back to what I was originally
Speaker 1 00:13:50 Envisioning. So if you really had to hold your ground, you would.
Speaker 2 00:13:53 Yeah, of course. And I've had to do that and you learn how to do that in a good diplomatic way. The whole process is just, it can be about diplomacy. Sometimes we all just want what's best for the book. We all want to make good books. And also if you're going to be, or your rat bag about it, then publish. Is that going to want to make any more books for the, are they saying,
Speaker 1 00:14:12 So James, tell me a little bit about where you get your inspiration from.
Speaker 2 00:14:16 I'm really trying to put a movie that's in my head onto the page. So movies and TV and animation as well. They're all really big inspirations.
Speaker 1 00:14:25 Do you ever worry that it's going to go, that you might get a block somewhere or sometime, and not be able to move past?
Speaker 2 00:14:34 I don't worry about that anymore because I've, I've made enough books to know that if a story isn't working right now, it will in the future, it's just, I've got to be patient kit chipping away at it and wait for that perfect little idea to click into place. So how
Speaker 1 00:14:50 Do you keep the on the child in all of this? Um, sometimes as we move away from childhood,
Speaker 2 00:14:56 When we get older in our own lives, we sort of lose that magic of childhood. Have you managed to retain that by just being really childish? I think, yeah, it's a bit of a cliche, but it's probably true. Lots of people who write for kids are really good at staying in touch with it, you know, child. And so for me, yeah, you ask any of my friends, I can be incredibly childish, so it's not hard to, to retain that sort of connection. And I guess when I'm writing for kids, I'm not often thinking about the audience really. And I probably should a bit more than I do. Normally I'm writing from the audience of me as a child and, and me as a child is just me.
Speaker 1 00:15:41 So it's one thing I think, to create that or to keep that, or retain that childhood view. But it's of course writing and illustrating is a very serious business.
Speaker 2 00:15:50 Yes. Yeah. So I have to have an adult head on as well. I have to treat it as a business and as a job and a career, particularly now that I'm a dad, it, um, when my son came along, I suddenly got a lot more serious about it. And in the first three years of his life, I made like seven or eight books. And up until that point, I'd made an average of like one every year and a half or every two years and three years I did seven or eight. So yeah, that's probably the reason why I'm taking a break, but also I just really knew that if I was going to support a family with this job and keep doing it, I needed to make it sustainable. I needed to raise my profile a bit. I needed to really pump out some really good work. And, um, I think it's paying off
Speaker 1 00:16:37 And certainly it's a, it's a tricky industry to be in. Isn't it. So how do you maintain that motivation?
Speaker 2 00:16:45 I have a mortgage. Um, yeah, I think just because I am helping to support my family, um, that's a huge motivation, just my kids and my wife and my home. I just wanna keep it all going, but also, I mean, I've come this far with making books and I, I don't want to give it up for anything. So,
Speaker 1 00:17:08 So you had a career before, didn't you, before you kind of went full time into writing and illustrating, what was that leap like? Cause it is a bit of a leap of faith at the first time you do it.
Speaker 2 00:17:18 Oh, it was, it was terrifying. I was lucky that my career before, um, I was working with the health department, which is where I first met you and I, I was able to do a part time. So I was doing that like three or four days a week. And I was able to come in later in the day and spread my days across the week. And so I could stay home a bit later and work a little bit in the morning and I was doing that day job while I was working on my first pitchable the last Viking. And it wasn't until I was about two years into having my books published. Um, but then the amount of work that was coming along with the books, the amount of school talks, workshops, festivals that was going with it, there was just too much of that to be able to balance the two careers anymore. And the image I always had in my head was that I felt like I had a foot on two different prospects and they'd been floating in parallel for a while. It was fine. But then they started to drift and I was doing the split. So I can't do the splits. And so I had to leap one way or the other and I thought, well, I've got enough work for the next 12 months just with books. So I just try for 12 months and that was, I use go.
Speaker 1 00:18:27 So it sounds like it sort of came to a critical point where you anxious in making that decision to go with the books.
Speaker 2 00:18:34 I was terrified. I was terrified. Um, but, um, my, my now wife who was a friend of mine at the time, she was she's a writer as well. And she was very encouraging and said, look, you know, you can do this. Um, and, and I always just saw it as like a temporary thing, kind of fool myself into saying in 12 months, just to give it 12 months and see how it goes. Um, but yeah, work kept coming in. So I managed to keep doing it. And so I'm really lucky and really grateful. I wouldn't recommend people just on a whim decide just to go, full-time making children's books. Um, because it really was a period of, well, I mean, I sent my first stuff off to publishers the year I left high school and I didn't get a nibble until 10 years later. That was when last year I can return to Scott contracted. And then I worked on that for two years and it was published. Yeah, 2011. And then I wasn't able to quit the day job until 2013. So that was like 14 years of trying.
Speaker 1 00:19:39 That's a long time.
Speaker 2 00:19:40 Yeah. But I mean, I started when I was 17. So it was, I guess the earliest started the easier it can be in some ways, but there's, there's no time limit on that. You can start at one, if you like, you just can't, I wouldn't recommend at least does cream the day job overnight and just go full time.
Speaker 1 00:19:57 Cause it's a lot of determination that was never
Speaker 2 00:20:01 On my part. Yeah. Um, yes. Yeah, definitely. I was very determined and, and have been, maybe just stubborn is a better word for it. I was, I was not gonna not, um, make books
Speaker 1 00:20:17 Sounds to me like it was something that was really already in you as a kid and just developed over time. And it just got to the point where this was the path you had to follow.
Speaker 2 00:20:28 Yeah. I was lucky though that I was always encouraged. My teachers, the vast majority of them would always very encouraging, but it's my primary school teachers and art teachers and English teachers in high school. But my parents too, and my friends were always very encouraging. I mean, there were people who said, oh, you know, you could go be a lawyer or a doctor or a teacher or something. And I did try to study primary teaching and I did try to study journalism and graphic design and I never finished those degrees, but each one of them taught me some really great skills, which now I use in this. And I, I, I, I feel like this is what I meant to be doing.
Speaker 1 00:21:08 Do you feel like people were sort of thinking this wasn't a real job and didn't, did it stack up against those other sorts of professional groups who has an actual facts as you've been incredibly successful?
Speaker 2 00:21:19 Yeah. Well, I think my marks were, were okay. Are pretty good in, in high school. So a lot of the teachers were encouraging me to try and go for things that people normally do if they got relatively good marks, but I just knew that those things were not going to make me feel satisfied and fulfilled. Um, so I'm lucky that I had the encouragement to do it. I'm lucky that Fremantle press basically was around the corner. I'm lucky that I was in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1 00:21:49 James, what, what do you hope kids get out of reading your books
Speaker 2 00:21:53 Or they're entertained first thing. Um, and if maybe there's a little bit of education along the way, whether that's some of the science, stem concepts in there S tinker and graphic novels, or just, you know, some of the morals and themes and stuff behind it, that would be good as well, but primarily entertainment because, um, when kids are reading for the simple pleasure of reading, then they are more motivated to read more. And it also improves all of their educational outcomes. This is according to Australian research. So, I mean, if we can just get kids to read just for the pleasure of it, then that's the best thing. Unfortunately, there's no section on net plan, which tests where the kids read for pleasure. And there really should be because the science has shown that it improves all of their outcomes across the curriculum. Even maths improves the kids read for pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:22:49 I completely agree with you on that point. I have to say, so tell us a little bit about Stephanie. It's an amazing story. It's got amazing illustrations.
Speaker 2 00:22:58 You come from Stephanie is yes. My new pitcher book is coming out with three metal press in November. It's an idea that first came along in a sketch that I drew in 2014. I was at the Scooby rottenness retreat. The, the SCWI retreat and bouncers were sitting out at the back of one of the cottages. And I did this sketch of an elephant in a space suit next to a penguin in a space suit. And it just there's, this is random sketch that came out of nowhere. And I thought, oh, that's cool. But it became this image that wouldn't go away. And I had it up on my pinup board and I started sketching a few more things to go with it. I had, you know, that famous image from the right stuff movie or the five astronauts walking together. I had the elephant in the middle and I had a monkey, a octopus and a tiger and a penguin.
Speaker 2 00:23:47 And that's almost the exact crew that ended up in the book. Um, just the monkey got swapped out for a slough. Um, yeah, just over time, these little tiny sketches just kept building up in my sketchbooks. And I also started learning randomly about the animals that have been displaced because I came across the Wikipedia article for animals in space. And it wasn't just, you know, the monkeys and chimps and dogs that we know about. It was all sorts of random animals. So one of the space shuttles had a colony of 3,400 bees go up on it. Um, there's been all sorts of types of fish. There's been a Mongolian gerbils and tardy grades and, um, Madagascar, hissing, cockroaches, and, uh, juvenile jellyfish and all sorts of random things. So even fertilized chicken eggs had been displaced, um, that was sponsored by Kentucky fried chicken in the United States.
Speaker 2 00:24:41 I'm not even joking. So yeah, all sorts of random things and just all these stories that came with that. I thought this is fascinating. Um, there's gotta be some sort of book with all these ideas swimming around in my head. And so eventually it became this pitcher book about this elephant who wants to go to space, but space command, which is run by all these white guys in a sort of 1960s style suits. And haircuts are saying that she can't go because they didn't have a space in his size or the rocket isn't big enough, she's too heavy and this and that, the other thing. And she proves that she can provide everything that they're looking for, but they still won't let her go. And look, I obviously am not a woman and I don't understand what that experience is of being a woman and being, um, discriminated against. But I do know a little of what it feels to be an outsider as I think most writers do. And, and so I could identify with Stella just from that point of view and from talking to my wife and reading what women talk about and what other people who are not white men talk about. It's sort of opened my eyes a bit to at least some of the discrimination faced.
Speaker 1 00:25:56 It sounds like, although it seems like a simple kid's picture book and a funny story and cute. There's actually a, quite a lot of thinking, a lot of understanding and analyzing and even research that goes on behind the scenes
Speaker 2 00:26:08 And be heaps going on under the surface of a pitchable, you know, it's, it's not just a bedtime story necessarily, and this one does have a surface text to it, which if that's what you get from it, that is great to me. That's wonderful. I hope you enjoy the story for at least that, but if you can start to gel with some of the subtext that's going on here too. Um, and if it changes maybe a few hearts and minds, that will be wonderful.
Speaker 1 00:26:32 So you had to think this is a story book that not only kids get to enjoy, but adults might actually learn from as well. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:26:38 I mean, I've never been that interested in making picture books for babies. I mean, there's a place for them and I love reading them to my baby daughter and I love to read them to my son when he was little, but I'm just no good at making baby books. It's just not my interest. I want to make picture books and chapter books and graphic novels for like middle primary and above. So there's a, there's a, there's different levels that you can, you know, understand these books on.
Speaker 1 00:27:04 I always like the illustrators and writers who can both appeal to the child and the adult in the story. And I think that's what your books do. There's, there's a, uh, a story for the adults in this, and there's a story for the kids as well. And sometimes they're the same and sometimes the different,
Speaker 2 00:27:19 Yeah, that's great. It's not something I necessarily set out to do. Um, but I just, I know from giving talks and, and from making some of these books that it's fun for the adults in the room. Sometimes if some of the jokes are just for them, if it goes over the kid's head and the adults get it, then that's okay. Kids can get it as I get a bit older, but quite often in these situations, the adult is reading the book with the kids. So if we can entertain both those audiences at the same time, it's in our interest,
Speaker 1 00:27:47 What do you think has been your greatest joy out of writing and illustrating books for kids?
Speaker 2 00:27:52 One of the best things was holding my advanced copy of the last Viking in my hand for the first time. And I remember how it smelled it, it smelled like a real book, and that was so bizarre just that it was actually in my hands and the smell like a book you would get from the library or the bookshop. That was one of the earliest, most wonderful joys. Other than that, it's a joy when every new book comes out. Um, but one of the probably better joys is when you really connect with an audience when you're speaking to a school group or group in a library or at a festival, and you feel like there's some energy in the room where you really connect with them. And not just that they're laughing at your jokes and stuff, cause that's nice, but you feel like you're connecting with them and communicating something with them and they're really into it. And, and there's just some sort of magic going on in the room.
Speaker 1 00:28:43 I'm sure you must get kids coming up and thanking you for some of the books that you've written or telling you about one of the books that they've read.
Speaker 2 00:28:50 Yeah, actually that's really good too. I think one of the other magic things about this job is that it's a bit like being a teacher. You never know how far your influence goes. You just have no idea. These ripple effects might go out into society and you're just not there to see them. And occasionally people come back and say, oh, I, I raised my son or my grandson, the last Viking, he was being bullied at school. And that book really helped him. And that just makes my heart exploded. It's wonderful
Speaker 1 00:29:20 Ward. Isn't it. So James, you've been in this industry for a while now. How do you look after yourself?
Speaker 2 00:29:27 I don't. I should. I should. <inaudible> exactly. I think it will taking this big amount of time off. It's been really important and I'm not going to go straight back into breakneck. Full-time work again. Um, but I think especially now that I've had kids, I know how important it is for me to slow down so that I have the energy to be there for them. And whereas before books were my number one priority in Korea was now it's it's second and it's there to support my kids. So I have to make sure that my kids are my first priority and to do that. I have to look after myself. So it's forced, my hand fight has forced my hand.
Speaker 1 00:30:09 And yet in some respects that probably will enrich your storytelling in the future.
Speaker 2 00:30:13 I think so. I think so it would definitely benefit me to not be so obsessed with the work and to have a bit more distance to it and to have a bit more, um, just lovely time with the family be more oxytocin. Does everyone some good.
Speaker 1 00:30:30 So who's been your greatest support, do you think throughout your career?
Speaker 2 00:30:33 My wife, without doubt, when I first started out, she was my friend and, um, eventually we got together and we got married and she's been there every step of the way and supporting me, it has been difficult because having kids she's had to put her writing to the side a bit, she'd love to be doing more writing and getting more things out there, even though I've been getting books published all the time and she hasn't, she's still been supporting me. And so I'm eternally grateful for her support and also because she's a really great sounding board and she has really great ideas for how stories can be tweaked as well. She's just, um, a bit wonderful. Like that
Speaker 1 00:31:13 Sounds like it's a perfect partnership.
Speaker 2 00:31:15 Well, it's good for me. I hope it's useful.
Speaker 1 00:31:18 Maybe we'll get her next to now. So, James, um, if you had to give a message to kids about reading books or storytelling or, or, or writing or illustrating, what, what would you say?
Speaker 2 00:31:29 Um, well, if you're really keen on making your own stories, I would say, just get started. Don't worry about anyone else thinks, and don't think that your first attempt has to be in any way. Perfect. Because if you could say my first draft for anything that always rubbish and that's okay, they're meant to be, they're not meant to be perfect because they're only the first of many drafts. So you do a first draft. Do you get the sense of what the story looks like? You don't have to show that to anybody and then you can improve on it in your second draft, then you can improve on it. And your third draft and the same goes for drawings too. Like your, your first sketch or something, doesn't have to be perfect at all. I would love if my ten-year-old self control the way that I could now, but it's not possible just to fast forward and get to that higher skill level you have to put in the time.
Speaker 2 00:32:24 And that is the trickiest thing. There's this great quote from this radio guy in the states, IRA glass, he works on NPR and he's got this quote where he says, the reason why you, you get into making things is because you've got good taste. You know, what a good story looks like? You know, what a good illustration looks like? You know, what your stuff could look like and you know what you want it to look like, but there's this big gap between where you are now and that place. And the only way to get from here to there is time and practice.
Speaker 1 00:32:58 So maybe the hardest is the first step. The hardest bit is
Speaker 2 00:33:00 The first step. Yes. And then the step after that and the step after that, because it's very frustrating for a long time when you're a young creative and your stuff, doesn't look like how you want it to look. And the only way to get there is time and practice. And I mean, you're going to get to that age anyway. You're going to get to my age anyway. And wouldn't, you have want to have put in the practice between then and now. Yeah. So anyway,
Speaker 1 00:33:25 And what would be your message to parents about reading stories with their kids or reading books with their kids
Speaker 2 00:33:31 Do it. You just have to do it. And even if you don't have that much time, um, get some audio books out from the library or download them to the iPad and have them on in the car. I have mine in the afternoon when you need some quiet time and maybe instead of TV, stick on an audio book, even audio books are still storytelling and that's still good. So
Speaker 1 00:33:50 It's important for parents to know that isn't it, because if they're not good readers, they might feel embarrassed about reading with their kids. Definitely books is a great option.
Speaker 2 00:33:57 Exactly right. Everyone should be able to have all your books. And sometimes you can get additions where the book comes with a CD. So you can listen to it and read at the same time. And that's a great option. But if you do have the opportunity and the means to get books out from the library and spend some time with your kids every night, you've just got to do it because I mean, it just has such a profound effect on kids' outcomes later in life. And if you're not sure about books and you've never been into books, yourself, librarians, your local library, um, and your school library, the librarians are there to help you. They're passionate people who love books more than anyone could love books, and they will help you find the stuff that's right for you. That will help you love books as well.
Speaker 1 00:34:40 Is there anything looking back you would have done differently about your career?
Speaker 2 00:34:46 I'd love to have been more confident in my ability from an earlier age. Um, but also I'd love to have been less controlling and pedantic over my drawings from a younger age, but look wishes. Um, I'm not going to do anything. And I'm worried that if any of those came true, it might change them around. And I'm very happy with where I am. I think that it all happens the way it happens for a reason. I'm still here. I'm still alive. I'm still making books.
Speaker 1 00:35:16 So all of those process were just necessary as part of the whole deal.
Speaker 2 00:35:20 You're right. Every false start, every dead end that felt like a false start or I did. And it was just another step on the way here. Just sometimes you just can't say that.
Speaker 1 00:35:28 Well, James, you've certainly written some amazing books and some of them are just great ideas that I just absolutely love. So I'm glad that you persisted and I'm glad you got to have all of those books published so far and I'll see you down the track. If you enjoyed our chat today, subscribe to the Fremantle press podcast on apple podcasts, Google play, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Helen Milroy, and I have been your host today. Join me next time. As we continue our journey into everything books,
