Speaker 1 00:00:13 Welcome to this special edition of the free animal press podcast. Today, we are recording in w in wa Abuja and in wa and I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. This is a place of bbar many stories, and I'd like to also acknowledge our first nations peoples as the first storytellers, right across Australia and possibly across the world. My name is Helen Miroy and I love kids books. I'm also an author and illustrator, and I love hosting this podcast because we get to talk to fabulous and interesting people about their books. Today. We're gonna be speaking with Katherine Lero, Katherine Wrights, novels, screenplays, and articles. Her stories have appeared on screens big and small in magazines and journals. And online. She holds a bachelor of arts from the university of Melbourne and a PhD from Monash university. Katherine has lived in many wonderful cities around the globe, considers cheese, a primary food group, and not so secretly wishes. She lived in a dance movie, her debut novel Alex in the alpaca save the world was shortlisted for the 2020 premier prize for writing for children and the sequel Alex and the alpacas write again, proves to be just as thrilling. So Katherine, just a few questions about yourself to get started. Are you a local? Did you grow up here?
Speaker 2 00:01:29 I am a local. Yes. I grew up in Western Australia, uh, in south mentle. Uh, but I left as, as soon as I finished high school, I was, I was outta here, uh, and I've spent a long time living in other parts of Australia and all over the world. And then actually almost two years ago to the day I landed back in Western Australia for what was supposed to be a three week vacation and have stayed here because it's quite a gorgeous part of the world.
Speaker 1 00:02:01 Oh, absolutely. Agree with you there. And probably one of the safest places to be right now. I imagine.
Speaker 2 00:02:05 I know. Yes, it definitely feels like it doesn't. We are very lucky.
Speaker 1 00:02:09 Very lucky. So, Catherine, did you do much reading as a kid? What was, what was that like for you growing up? Oh,
Speaker 2 00:02:16 Helen, you could not get a book out of my hands. So my absolute favorite thing to do on like summer vacations or really any time where I didn't have to be at school, even at school, probably I just had a book in my hands. So for, um, not that, not that we're a particularly religious family, but for Easter we would get books instead of Easter eggs, uh, for Christmas, always books for birthdays books. And I remember my parents telling me that, you know, one year, one Christmas father, Christmas delivered, um, some, a, a stocking of books to me and my parents were like, this is terrific. That'll keep her in bed for hours. And apparently an hour and a half later I was up and I was like, right. I finished them all. What's next
Speaker 1 00:03:01 <laugh> so yes, much should the disappointment of your parents
Speaker 2 00:03:04 <laugh> I know they were quite devastated actually. And I still love reading. Like I read anything and everything, you know, people usually love, they're like, I love this genre. I love that genre. I put anything in my hands and I will read it if it's, if it's got words I'm I'm right there. Mm yep. So yes, that is a very long wind of say way of saying yes, I have always loved repeat it.
Speaker 1 00:03:25 So did you have a favorite? Was there one book in particular that at some stage in your growing up years really stuck out for you?
Speaker 2 00:03:32 Do you know? There is, and I still read it every single year. So it's a book called the wolves of Willowby chase and it's oh my gosh. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend it. It still stands the test of time. It is heartfelt it's adventure, it's family. It's got baddies, it's got good triumphing over evil and it's set in, I don't know, industrial age, England, or something like that. So there's also coal. I dunno why that stood out to me that there is like lumps of coal in this story, which I think growing up, I was like, that is so weird. What is that? But yes, I read that book to this day, every year and I still love it every single time. I could probably, uh, quote it to you verbatim as well.
Speaker 1 00:04:13 What impact did it have on you? What, what in particular stayed with you?
Speaker 2 00:04:17 I think it was the adventure. Like, I love a story that's like fast paced and adventurous and it was also just this idea of the underdog triumphing over the big, bad evil. I, I don't wanna give too much away in it. I'm sure a lot of people have actually read it. And that's something that I still love in stories of any kind, you know, films or books or TV shows, just this idea of like one small person triumphing over some big, bad, your evil or something like that
Speaker 1 00:04:49 Sounds like it instilled some kind of hope.
Speaker 2 00:04:52 Yeah. That is actually a lovely way of putting it. And I don't think I've articulated it to myself in that way, but I think that is 100% correct. Yeah. Cause I do, I love particularly at the moment. I love hopeful stories. Yeah. You know, they don't have to be pretty and happy all the time, but I just love leaving audiences and I love being left with a feeling of hope. Like, do you know what all is not lost? We can actually succeed or triumph. And I think we actually all need a little bit more of that in our lives, particularly as I said at the moment.
Speaker 1 00:05:23 Absolutely. And I think especially for children, you know, it must be very confusing times for them at the moment. So having hope and that idea that, you know, even as little people, they can do something that's significant. So I, I think that's a, that's a great, and it's a great message to children. Isn't it? And to writers is to have that, um, hope instilled.
Speaker 2 00:05:41 Oh, absolutely. And yeah, I think that's something that I really tried to get across in my books. I dunno whether I did it consciously or unconsciously, but yeah. Showing that one individual person, one, one individual person who might not even think that they're that terrific or that amazing or that, but, you know, they might just be like, I'm just average. Like what can I do? You know what? You can actually do something. Mm.
Speaker 1 00:06:04 Everyone can make a difference. Catherine, what age did you become interested in actually writing stories?
Speaker 2 00:06:09 Um, so I've always been writing both. My parents are writers. So growing up, we were not allowed to really watch television or do anything like that. We were really encouraged to create rather than consume if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, books totally. You can read as many books as you want, but like I remember as a kid growing up and like, we made our own board games and wrote our own stories and illustrated and all of that kind of stuff. So growing up definitely and all through school, I did a lot of writing. I think most writers now won writing competitions as a kid. And then I, I guess when I got to university, I, I, I stopped the creative writing aspect. Um, I did actually a creative writing course at college. And I, I think that like honestly killed it a little bit for me.
Speaker 2 00:07:06 I think once you, for me, once I tried to put that framework of academia around creative writing it, it really killed it for me. And so there was a big gap there where I wasn't doing any creative writing. Obviously I was still writing essays for college, but then it was when I was doing my PhD many years later that I just, I had this, like, I, I don't know. I just felt like the creative buzz started in me again. And I started writing a weekly blog that is not appropriate for children at all, but it was like a weekly soap opera that was just like fun and sexy and ridiculous. And it was such a fantastic outlet that I was just like, oh my God, that's right. I love doing this. And I didn't set myself any rules. I didn't. I mean, the, the only rule I had was like, you have to write an episode in three hours. That was it and release it every week kind of thing. So, yeah, I think I've always had the writing bug in me, but it was dormant for probably a decade. And then it got reignited and honestly, Helen now just, you try and stop me writing, like ask my husband. I get so grumpy if I have even like three days where I'm not creating stories of some kind,
Speaker 1 00:08:19 It sounds like you had to find that intuition again and that sort of natural creativity within to get back on that path. And in some respects, you know, academia and the light took you off that natural path.
Speaker 2 00:08:32 Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. And when I did start writing again, I actually made a really conscious decision. So when I wrote the first draft of Alex and the Alpac had saved the world, I just, like, I just sat down and I like bomb drafted out and it was such a mess. It, like, I look back at it now and I'm just like, I don't know. It's like, there's no sort of narrative structure to whatever, but I did make a very conscious choice that I wanted to sit down and just write something without learning how to write, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 00:09:06 Yeah. Without all the filters,
Speaker 2 00:09:08 I guess I then circled back and learned my craft and I'm still learning. I believe you're constantly learning throughout your whole life, but I made a really conscious decision to not learn the craft until, until I'd actually created something. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 00:09:24 It sounds like you fitted the structure into the creativity rather than fitting the creativity into the structure. And that then gave you a more authentic story at the end of the day.
Speaker 2 00:09:35 Yeah. Well, gosh, I hope so. Um, it's obviously hard to comment on your own work. Of course, this is not to say I don't like structure because I actually love structure. And a lot of my stories, all of my stories follow like a pretty traditional three act structure or a hero's journey. If anyone's familiar with those terms, the thing I like about structure is that it actually does open you up to be very creative within constraints. So I suppose it's not contrary to what I was just saying before, but these days I actually like having a structure in my mind and that's something that does come quite intuitively to me now, after many, many years of practicing it, I like having that structure because it means I can go in and I'm like, right, here's the box I have color in. However you want inside that box. And having those constraints actually helps me be more creative. I think these days, I don't think it would've done to start with, but these days it done.
Speaker 1 00:10:32 So you started with creativity. You then eventually learn structure. And then at some point you're able to put them together, but you need both is what you're really saying.
Speaker 2 00:10:40 I do believe that I know other people will say differently, but I, I absolutely believe that I think as well, because I write very commercial stories and all commercial stories basically fit into a structure of some kind. So yes, I, I do love commercial structures to frame my stories by these days. Honestly, it's the way you marry them together. That will give you your, your voice or your perspective. It's what's gonna make you unique.
Speaker 1 00:11:08 Hmm. So Catherine, what's the inspiration behind your books? I'm very intrigued by Alex and the El Packers.
Speaker 2 00:11:15 Ah, yes. Okay. So the first one, um, I wrote the first draft of it back in, I actually can't remember off the top of my head, but it was quite a while ago. So it's set in Tasmania. I was living in Melbourne and I went to Tasmania for a weekend to meet my then boyfriend's aunt who was house sitting and alpaca farm. Right.
Speaker 1 00:11:37 I wondered where the alpacas came from.
Speaker 2 00:11:40 Yeah, no, no, no. Okay. So it was this hobby, alpaca farm. So I arrived there. We were supposed to be there for one weekend. It was a bit of a drive from Hobart. It was sort of the middle of Tasmania Huan valley. I arrived there and I got out of the car and I just turned to my husband and said, I don't ever want to leave this place. You know, sometimes you arrive somewhere and there's just magic. Like you, you walk out and you can just feel, it's like there's magic. I don't know. It's almost like electricity in the air. So that's how I felt when I arrived at this hobby farm at this farm, let's just call it farm. I'd never met my boyfriend's aunt before, but I ended up staying there for two and a half weeks with her <laugh> he went back to Melbourne.
Speaker 2 00:12:23 I stayed with her. I had no clothes with me really. So we had to go to like a, a $2 store. And I bought a tracksuit that I wore the entire time I was there. And I actually sat down and wrote the first draft of an entirely different book. And I'd never written a book before. So I wrote this like mystery thriller thing that literally is never coming out of the bottom draw. That was a really terrific practice run for me and how not to write a novel. But I wrote a whole book in two weeks and I just thought, well, that was easy. Whatever, but being there, I just kept having these ideas of talking our Packers and mystery in the forest and all kinds of like magical, mystical things that just popped into my head. And I didn't actually sit down and write the first draft of Alex for another couple of years, but those ideas will not leave me alone in Helen. Like they were, they were there and they were just saying to me like, you better do something with us. Otherwise we are gonna haunt you in your dreams. So eventually I sat down and wrote the first draft and now they do not haunt me in my, my dreams, which is lovely.
Speaker 1 00:13:24 That real experience that you had there was really important then, because that really comes across that sort of feeling of magic and something mystical in the air. As you say, comes out in the book, do you think that it would've been impossible to write that without that actual experience?
Speaker 2 00:13:40 Absolutely impossible. I never ever would've come up with the idea for this book if I hadn't been there and do you know, almost every single one of my stories, I get inspiration from where I am, I suppose, from the landscape. I, I never come at stories from character first. I always am inspired by the place or the feeling of a place or, or something like that. Yeah. So, so definitely that little tiny pocket of Tasmania. Yeah. There was some crazy creative magic going on there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:16 What were you hoping kids would get out of Alex and her Al Packers?
Speaker 2 00:14:22 I really wanted kids to take away from it. The feeling that I got when I was 10 and I sat down to read a book, which was the whole day disappears because you are just so engrossed in a story. I don't necessarily want kids to take away a strong message or, or anything like that. I just want them to be so engrossed in this story that they can't put it down. And, you know, I've had some terrific emails and, and, um, messages from parents who <laugh>, it's a bit of a catch 22, but they're like, thanks so much for the book. My daughter or son loved it. They read it in one day and part of me is like, wow, that's amazing. So really I've achieved what I set out to achieve, but I'm also like, gee, that took me seven years to write and they've consumed it in one day. I better get like a bit quicker at writing stories. I think <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:15:19 Yes, a long time in the making, but very quick to read. However, perhaps even in that sort of short timeframe for reading the feeling or the magic, as you say, stays with the child.
Speaker 2 00:15:28 Well, I hope so. I mean, this is the best thing about being a kid's author and you would know this as well. I get like parents will email me drawings that their kids have done based on scenes that from the book or like ideas that they've sparked or, um, animals that they would want to help save the world. And that's it, isn't it. You just wanna spark imagination in other people, curiosity and creativity that that's what runs the world. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:15:54 Yep. That's maybe what we'll save the world. Who knows? What do you want the parents to find in your book?
Speaker 2 00:16:01 So for the parent, I, so I don't actually sit down when I'm writing and think I am going to write the kids' book. I sit down, well, I actually stand when I'm working. So I stand and I think I wanna write a book that I would like to read as an adult that is also appropriate for children. Okay. So what the parents take away is, well, number one, they love that their kids are reading number two, I've had terrific emails and messages from parents who say, thank you for creating a book that is also enjoyable for us. <laugh>. And the other thing that a lot of people have said is thank you for making short chapters. So a lot of parents will read it to their kids at, at bedtime and the kids will be like, just one more chapter, one more chapter. And they're like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 00:16:48 One more chapter, because they're quite short chapters. So they can like get through it pretty quickly. So, yeah. And, and, you know, I've had a lot of adults say to me, oh yeah. When my kid falls asleep, I actually read ahead because it's, it's engaging and it's engrossing. And do you know the best, the best, best, best piece of fan mail I've ever had is a handwritten letter that someone from England posted, uh, a 90 year old man who said that he read my book and he put down all of his gardening magazines to read my book because it was so engrossing. And he didn't read his gardening magazines for a few days because he was too busy reading my book. Wow. And that to me was just <laugh> was the most amazing piece of feedback I'd ever
Speaker 1 00:17:30 Got you. Trump gardening. My goodness. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:17:33 Yeah, I know. Can you imagine? I was like, oh my gosh, no pressure. Oof.
Speaker 1 00:17:38 So Catherine, is it difficult to hold in mind the child and the parent as you're writing, sometimes that can be a hard thing to span across both particularly given children are quite at quite a different sort of developmental stage compared to adults. How do you do that?
Speaker 2 00:17:53 I honestly don't think about it perhaps. It says a lot about my maturity level rather than <laugh> rather than my writing ability. The things I think about is like obviously no swearing. I don't like putting romance in these stories because I, I love the purity of friendship. So I suppose I think about things before I go into writing rather than when I'm actually sitting down writing, some of the themes are like, they're, they're pretty scary. I'd say they're, they're a little edgy for, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 year olds, depending on how developed they are. So again, I'm, I'm pushing a couple of boundaries probably in terms of themes and themes, I suppose. Let's that
Speaker 1 00:18:36 Certainly complex plots that's for sure. Obviously kids can, can run with that, but adults can as well.
Speaker 2 00:18:42 So I love Pixar movies and you look at a Pixar movie and a five year old child can get something out of a Pixar movie and an 85 year old grandparent can also get something out of a Pixar movie. So I suppose I'm always thinking, how do I appeal to the broadest audience for, for want of a better yeah. Word I suppose,
Speaker 1 00:19:03 And not letting children out of that, which is a fantastic way of doing it.
Speaker 2 00:19:07 There's also so much that you get as an adult from kids' stories. I think that, you know, the themes are all very similar and the, and the heart and the, the characters, like they're all real issues and problems and challenges that we all face. Like it's not an an age thing. I don't
Speaker 1 00:19:23 Think that's right. They're not unique to adults or children. They're no, no unique across the population. Catherine, you have a PhD, you've worked in many different roles, including costume design, marketing, high tech research, academia, and so on. Do you have a secret twin we don't know about, or are you secretly 120 years old? That's an awful lot to fit in, in, uh, you know, in your life already. How did you manage all of that?
Speaker 2 00:19:50 This is not necessarily something to be proud of, but I'm a workaholic. Uh, I find it very difficult to take time off. And I, I think I said it before. I, I love my work so much that I want to just do it all the time basically.
Speaker 1 00:20:09 Do you think all of those other experiences given that they're quite varied and you know, even different industries did that all help with the sort of inspiration with the books and the actual process of writing at all?
Speaker 2 00:20:19 Absolutely. 110%. I would be nowhere near as good a writer as I am today. That sounds quite conceited, but I, I think, you know what I mean as good a writer as I am today, if I hadn't had all of those experiences, because one of the things that came that really became clear to me, I suppose, the older I got and the more different industries I worked in was that the thing I loved about everything I did was the ability to tell a story about wherever I was working. So, you know, when I was working in sales, the thing I loved most was like telling a story behind the product. When I was working in marketing, the thing I loved most was like crafting stories. And how do we, how do we engage people with these stories? And I think, you know, the different types of writing that I do as well.
Speaker 2 00:21:08 So the screenwriting, the technology, writing, the, the novel, writing, all of those things, I take different skills from all of them and putting them all together just makes me a, a far, far better storyteller. I think people often say right. What, you know, and I don't necessarily believe that to be true, but I think there's something in this idea of like right emotions that you can that, you know, and I think doing a lot of different things has given me different feelings that I can then bring into my work. I still work on tech projects for Silicon valley. Um, I'm still screenwriting. So I've got a couple of screenwriting projects that are four kids, but I'm also doing some stuff for adults. So I really do still do a very broad spectrum of writing.
Speaker 1 00:22:01 Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any setbacks with your writing and, and if you did, how did you deal with them? <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:22:09 Uh, yes, yes, I did. Helen. Um, just one or two, you know, <laugh> yeah, I know so many setbacks. Um, how long has this podcast been look so many setbacks, but in a nutshell, the publishing industry is difficult. Writing is difficult. It's very difficult to get published. It's difficult to get an agent it's all hard, right? I have been rejected hundreds of like absolutely hundreds and hundreds of times I've had people say to me, you're really not as good as you think you are. I've had people say to me, don't give up your day job. I'm like, this is my day job. That's awkward. I've had people say all kinds of things. And I just keep coming back to the fact that creative industries are so subjective. So what if you get one bad piece of feedback that does not mean you should give up. That means if anything, you should work harder to prove that person wrong. That's how I sort of approach it. And also setbacks just make you a better writer, to be honest, like you can't be precious about stuff. You really can't particularly. I mean, I think you actually maybe need to think about like writing and getting published almost as two separate things, because writing can be just like pure creativity. There are no, um, boundaries on it, right. But if you wanna get published, your book is gonna have to sell. And so you have to reach an audience. That's part of the way I think about it as well. I'm sorry. I've completely lost track of the question. What?
Speaker 1 00:23:51 No, no. I, I think that's an interesting point. Uh, Catherine, because it sounds to me like some of your experiences across your career helped you then deal with the potential for setbacks and understanding that this is part of the process. As you say, not taking it too personally, but using it to drive you forward. Was there one thing in particular that kept up your motivation or a person or someone in your life or elsewhere that just kept you going? Cause I, I know some people, they, they get those setbacks and they get that disappointment and sometimes they, they go away from writing. What kept you going? It
Speaker 2 00:24:23 Was a few things. So the first sort of book, I suppose, that I sat down to write in earnest was Alex and mal packer saved the world. And it was just this innate belief that there was something in this story, regardless of how many people said not don't like it, not for us, you know, da, da, da. I just, I knew like I knew inside me that there was just something here, something magical. And I thought, well, if I can feel it, then surely other then surely someone else will feel it too. So that was one thing. So it was having, I mean, belief in myself, I suppose the second thing was surrounding myself with a community of other writers who understood what I was going through, but also who had these wild achievements that in my greatest dreams, I never thought would happen to me. I, I remember before I got published saying to my writer's group, if I ever get published, I'm gonna die of shock <laugh> and you know what? I got published and I did not die of shock.
Speaker 1 00:25:25 <laugh> thank goodness as it
Speaker 2 00:25:26 Turns out. Yeah. Thank goodness. Right. In a nutshell, it's surrounding yourself with people who are more advanced in their career than you and realizing that they are just people who are just doing the same thing as you it's just, they've got there first. Oh. And then the third thing, very long-winded I know the third thing is support. So my husband has just been my greatest cheerleader the whole time. So when I finished my PhD, I had never really told anyone that I wanted to write a book. I, I had it in the back of my mind. I was like, you know what? I really, I think I have a book in me. And when I finished my PhD, he gave me this little how-to book called how to write a novel in 30 days. And I was like, why are you giving this to me? And he said, I can just tell you've got a story and you that wants to come out <laugh> he was my boyfriend at the time. And then I decided I should probably marry him cuz he understood me quite well. <laugh> so find someone who's gonna cheerlead and pour your champagne when it's needed and cups of tea when they're needed and chocolate, when it's needed.
Speaker 1 00:26:29 One thing I, uh, took away from some of that apart from obviously clearly having people who believe in you is that you found the magic, you believed in it and you weren't gonna let it go.
Speaker 2 00:26:40 No, I am also quite stubborn <laugh> so if I want to do something, it is going to happen. Even if it takes seven to 10 years.
Speaker 1 00:26:49 Well done. Well done, Catherine. So any final words for us today, Catherine,
Speaker 2 00:26:54 Just keep consuming stories, whatever form they're in. Because if you can be a good storyteller, you are going to go places to be honest, like I truly believe the world is built on story. Absolutely. And if you can, yeah. If you can engage people in a narrative, regardless of what that is, whether you are a public speaker, a teacher, a bus driver, whatever it is, if you can tell a great story at a dinner party, I just feel like you are, you are gonna be surrounded by wonderful people and your life is just going to be a lot richer stories. Make the world a richer place.
Speaker 1 00:27:33 Absolutely couldn't agree. More Catherine and their lovely words to finish on. So listeners, you can find Alex and the Al packer, save the world and write again in all good bookstores and
[email protected]. If you enjoyed our chat today, subscribe to the fre Mandel press podcast on apple podcast, Google play, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. My name is Helen Miro and I have been your host today. Join me next time. As we continue our journey into everything books.
