Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:12 Welcome to this special edition of the Freemantle press podcast. Today, we are recording in w in wa Abuja, and I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. This is a place of Bulla bar, many stories, and I'd also like to acknowledge our first nations peoples as the first storytellers right across Australia. My name is Helen Miroy and I really love kids books. I'm also an author and illustrator. I love hosting this podcast because we get to talk to fabulous and interesting people about their books. And today we have the fabulous Paula Hayes. So Paula is an Australian writer who enjoys writing magical realism for young people. This means she's good at making strange stuff up and setting it in real life. Paula has four adult kids, two grandkids, and has worked in education, which gives her an endless spring of inspiration for stories for young people in a parallel universe, she studied at UWA, but now writes from a desk in her pantry. This has its pros and cons. Paula is passionate about children's literature and literacy and has a foot in each camp. The latest novel is the vexatious haunting of Lily Griffin. Welcome Paula.
Speaker 2 00:01:24 Thank you very much, Helen. It's lovely to be here. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1 00:01:28 So, Paula, a little bit about yourself first. Where did you sort of come from originally? I was
Speaker 2 00:01:32 Born in Perth, um, and I lived there until I was about 10 and then we upped and moved to port Headland for a while. So I did about eight years up there and then came back down, went to UWA and had four children and <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:01:46 And stayed, put ever since
Speaker 2 00:01:48 And stayed put ever since. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:01:50 So Paula, do you remember books as a kid? What sort of books were you interested in growing up?
Speaker 2 00:01:56 I loved books. I had an aunt who was a teacher and she would just bring me books all the time and I loved, it's probably not politic, correct to say, but I loved Ian blight and all of those sorts of stories. I love Anna Green Gables. Um, my favorite book as an adult, I know.
Speaker 1 00:02:16 Okay. What was your favorite book as an adult?
Speaker 2 00:02:18 The great Gatsby and that book continues to haunt and inspire me all the time. I've got a little girl crush on Zelda. <laugh> um,
Speaker 1 00:02:29 It's quite a captivating story, isn't it?
Speaker 2 00:02:32 It is. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:02:33 Your latest novel, the vexatious haunting of Lily Griffin. Can you just describe to our audience what, what that's about
Speaker 2 00:02:40 The rise and rise of one 11 year old, um, Lily Griffin, and she's a shy, introverted bookish, sort of a girl. And she sent off one's holidays to her grandfather's house, which she loves, it's old and ancient full of mystery intrigue through that house. She encounters all kinds of different magical, and, um, mysterious beings that kind of give her a bit of a booster along and a bit of a kick along. And, um, she ends up being able to join the wider community and make friends and together they solve these, uh, supernatural mysteries a bit like Trixie den, but with Polter Geist. Um, and she's able to deal with daily issues that you know, are coming up too. Paula,
Speaker 1 00:03:28 What was the inspiration behind the RO room?
Speaker 2 00:03:32 Now the rosy room is a room am my maternal grandmother's house. Alice printi guest. My grandmother lived in a very, very old house. Now we all spent a lot of time there. We loved her. My mom was the Samet stress and there was just a room full of material and pens and patterns. But on top of that, there were other rooms because my grandmother had five children and she came from a family of about nine kids. It was like <laugh> Thai periods, you know, <laugh>, there was horseshoe and there was really disgusting painted coral and there were beautiful clothes made from the fifties. And, and there was just boxes of letters and boxes of, um, air mail and postcards. And I just so enjoyed putting on some green eyeshadow and lipstick and dressing up in my mum's cause my mum is tiny and I I'm not as a kid, I could fit into her things she'd left behind at the house, like her beautiful dancing shoes or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:04:33 Um, yeah, it was just a, a mismatch of crap in this room and I loved it. My mom would come pick me up and Nana would say, well, we have to wipe that off your face now and come out and watch a bit of Mike Walsh and calm you down a bit till, you know, mom comes home from work. I love that house. Even recently, my mom sent me a picture of the house in Bayswater yesterday. She went past and my dad took a picture of her out front of the house that the house was in the family for 40 years. Every time it's open all of us troops through, we're not gonna buy it <laugh> but that house was very, very special. It was just a house that my cousins, uncles and aunt, we just, yeah, it was a special place.
Speaker 1 00:05:20 A lot of fond memories. It sounds like it was a treasure trove of dress up and imagination.
Speaker 2 00:05:25 Yes, it was. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:05:28 So how did you become interested in, in writing children's
Speaker 2 00:05:31 Book? Uh, I've always written. It's just one of the things that I could do probably when my youngest child was, you know, could get their own weight books. I started to really sit down and think about writing. So probably when I was about 40 I'm 51, now I'm a late bloomer. Um, but I I've, I wrote so many manuscripts. I have just, I just constantly write.
Speaker 1 00:05:55 So did you ever submit manuscripts? How did you get to the point where you felt able to take that forward?
Speaker 2 00:06:02 I just had faith in myself. I just really thought probably too much faith in myself. You know, <laugh> now when I read back over it go, oh my goodness. But there was just a jam. There was something in there that I thought maybe somebody might like to read this. Um, maybe someone else can get some enjoyment out of it or learn something.
Speaker 1 00:06:20 And you'd had that experience, I guess, as a teacher. So did that sort of give you some more extra confidence that you might have known what children might like or young people might like?
Speaker 2 00:06:32 Yes, I think so. Definitely having the four children. I've never taken my eye off. What's what in kids' literature, because children are spaced over 10 years. And so I went from Harry Potter to Tashi, to, you know, whatever was coming in. We were so into, but yeah, I, I submitted some stuff to Freemantle press and it was a no go. And then I had a meeting with Kate, just one of those, um, meetings from Squibb, I think. And I had all these different manuscripts to talk about, but I picked Lily and she said, I'm so glad you picked Lily because I think Lily's got a bit of life in her and she made one or two very helpful feedbacks. And yeah, I went from there. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:07:15 Yeah. Paula, what was the inspiration behind the books?
Speaker 2 00:07:20 I think I was reading Harry Potter and then reading to my children all the time that the main character was always an orphan or an underdog. And I thought, well, what about the average little girl there? That's just sitting in a bedroom, mining her own business and is loved. And everything's relatively functional that old Chestnut. Yeah. She still has to deal with stuff, you know?
Speaker 1 00:07:39 Yeah, absolutely. So in fact, it's kind of a representation from most of the kind of kids around, you know, that, that maybe have an okay background that, that they still can identify with this sort of story and the little girl in the story.
Speaker 2 00:07:52 Yeah. They're not living in the cupboard under the staircase, they're living <laugh> with a, a family and you know, that all brings its joys and its sorrows and its craziness. And I can reach those sort of themes of identity and bullying and just by countering it with the supernatural. And I, I just hope that it comforts and it, you know, helps a few kids escape.
Speaker 1 00:08:14 Yeah. Look, I, I do think sometimes we underestimate kids and what they can actually understand. And, and so I think that some of these complex concepts that you deal with in the book, I think some children would definitely be able to identify with all of that and take strength from it. For sure.
Speaker 2 00:08:30 Yes. Yeah. That's the, the main goal.
Speaker 1 00:08:32 Yep. So how did you know this one was gonna be a good story? You obviously had that meeting with Kate. She liked it. You liked it. Was there something special about it?
Speaker 2 00:08:41 Lily just tapped me on the shoulder and said, get your laptop out, girl, we're gonna do this. <laugh> and it's just been like a beautiful vomit of M and Ms. You know, it just came out of me. The voice resonated with me and it was very authentic. I think I must be stuck as an intro introspective 11 year old. It just felt very genuine and it came very naturally.
Speaker 1 00:09:02 So Paula, is there a little bit of you in the book?
Speaker 2 00:09:05 It's a book that's ex incredibly close to my heart. I just, I guess I was a little Lily and I guess I feel for the little lilies and all her satellite friends and, and her brothers and
Speaker 1 00:09:17 These are real feelings in the book then aren't they?
Speaker 2 00:09:20 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:09:22 So, um, Paula, did you get frustrated with your early efforts? How was that whole process of becoming a good writer? Tell me a little bit about how that developed.
Speaker 2 00:09:31 Well, I started off with, you know, the young adult ghost story that was going to illustrate the story of my, um, uncle who went to France in world war. I, and I just thought it was maze balls, you know, and I read it now and go, oh my gosh, Paula <laugh>. So, no, it wasn't difficult. I think I just really, I just enjoyed it. I loved the research part of it. I loved the writing part of it. I love the editing part of it. I have a, had a dear old art that was my beta reader and it gave her such a lease of life to edit and proofread and yeah. So I thought I was amazing. I think my journey started when I had to really reflect. And when I started talking to Kate, cuz that's serious kind of feedback that you need to take on. Mm.
Speaker 1 00:10:17 How did that feel for you? Cuz some people are, are fine with feedback. Some people find it a personal attack.
Speaker 2 00:10:23 No, no, no. Look, I was very grateful for all the feedback. Um, and then other people might say one or two things and I'll just get miffed and think you don't even get it. Just stop talking, you know <laugh> but yes, I am very, I'm very protective of my work. I get a bit miffed. Mm.
Speaker 1 00:10:40 So there's a compromise sometimes in writing isn't there,
Speaker 2 00:10:43 There is a compromise because you can write and write and write, but if it's not going to touch anybody and you've just got pages of kill my darlings, then
Speaker 1 00:10:55 What were you hoping that the kids or young people would find in your books?
Speaker 2 00:10:59 Well, I think number one is comfort and escapism. Um, I went, I read Harry Potter as an adult, after a, a tragedy and it just took me right out and I became addicted and I couldn't wait for the next book. I was right at that time where it was being freshly released every 12 months or whatever. Yes. You just enter a different world for a while. And, but meanwhile, the themes of your own reality are still there and being picked at and pulled at and uh, gently examined through Lily's um, stern eyes.
Speaker 1 00:11:34 Yes. It's one of those things where children can see or young people can see it happening in the book to a different character. And although that's not necessarily their story, they still learn how to deal with it all. Or they still learn how to express it all. So in a way it's still helping them, even if it's not their world at that point in time.
Speaker 2 00:11:52 Yeah. Li and her friends have a little talk about what makes a bully a bully. They, they can't get to the bottom of it, but it's sometimes it's just inexplicable. Yeah. It's wrong.
Speaker 1 00:12:03 That's right. And it increases their understanding then, and perhaps allows them to think about what they could do
Speaker 2 00:12:08 And that it's not just them. It's a widespread problem that it happens in families, at schools, on buses. It's just one of those less fortunate human traits of our personality.
Speaker 1 00:12:18 Yeah. And something probably a, an enormous number of children have to cope with at some point in their growing up years. Yeah. So what were you hoping parents might find in the book?
Speaker 2 00:12:27 There's lots of issues there that are sort of, you can pull out tentatively or, um, examine, uh, she kind of starts awakening to the issue of feminism. It's all very gentle. There's nothing confronting about Lily, but she certainly digs her teeth in and gets to the bottom of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:12:49 She's determined isn't she?
Speaker 2 00:12:51 Yeah. She covers all the issues, you know, there's, I mean, even sibling bullying, that's a big one at end of book three, she kind of works out well, her brother Lindon was journeying through his own special challenges and it, she just couldn't see it, that he did have problems that were genuine and trying to get him to change, to fit in and be accepted by his father. It just didn't work and he'd rather be himself. So I think all the carrots have to find their own truth. Mm. Find their own resolution. Mm.
Speaker 1 00:13:23 And it's hard to raise those things with your parents sometimes isn't it, you know, these things happen commonly in families, but you know, how does the Lily bring that up? And so sometimes the book then opens up that conversation.
Speaker 2 00:13:34 Yes. I really hope so.
Speaker 1 00:13:36 What was that like for you sort of transitioning from one sort of career to another?
Speaker 2 00:13:41 I was basically a stay at home mum for a long time. Then when I, I went back to work, I ended up doing early childhood education assistant and I didn't wanna be the teacher anymore. I wanted to continue my writing and, um, and just continue being with children without all the extra work. So yeah. I ended up doing a stint at the DCP, looking after children at educational risk. So I was going into schools and going into homes to help, um, first nation children. And I love that
Speaker 1 00:14:13 May have been a difficult experience at times, but it sounds like it was also an enriching experience
Speaker 2 00:14:18 For you. It changed my life. It was, I've met so many good people. I've just, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:25 Did you have any setbacks along the way in terms of your writing or getting your books published?
Speaker 2 00:14:31 Well after Lily, there was a dry spell <laugh> um, I wanted to get into young adult. I left Lily behind and, and started on this desperate goth story of a sedentary mantle about convicts and ghosts and reincarnation and love and trail and <laugh>. And I still haven't found a home for it. So I went back to Lilly.
Speaker 1 00:14:53 How did you get the motivation back to finish off the Lilly stories?
Speaker 2 00:14:57 I went back into my little closet and I, I wrote about a third of it and I gave it to my aunt and she loved it. And then when she passed away, everything kind of didn't have my be to read her. And, but then I looked at it and I thought I'm just gonna finish you off. And then I just was off again. It was a little hiatus
Speaker 1 00:15:16 And I assuming you, you missed your beat reader.
Speaker 2 00:15:19 Yeah. She's a bit like my Gigi <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:15:21 Sounds like she was a really big support for you.
Speaker 2 00:15:25 She was, she held my hand my whole life.
Speaker 1 00:15:27 Yeah. And I was gonna ask you about that. It can be a lonely pursuit writing books, um, often in your own head or in your own room, you know, writing away. What did keep you going? Obviously, you, you clearly had some family support. Yes. Were there other supports around you as well? That that helped you?
Speaker 2 00:15:45 I do have a very dear friend. Who's now my beta reader and every now and then we'll have coffee and she'll read it and go, yes, no, yes, no. Or she, she just gets it and she can take a character off on a tangent. Yes. My imaginary friends have become her imaginary friends too. And it's just really, it's really nice to have such a good friend like that. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:16:07 <affirmative> that would take a lot of trust then in letting them read it and give you feedback and all of that.
Speaker 2 00:16:14 Yeah. Well, we've been friends since we were about 13 mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:16:16 <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> that's a long time.
Speaker 2 00:16:18 It is a long time. Cause I'm 51 now. <laugh> yeah,
Speaker 1 00:16:21 Yeah. Yeah. How do you look after yourself in this industry? Cuz it's a tricky industry to be in.
Speaker 2 00:16:27 Well, I think you were talking before about how it it's a solitary occupation and then you've suddenly got to go out and be hilarious and shine. I find that exhausting <laugh> I can do it, but
Speaker 1 00:16:41 Maybe a bit terrifying
Speaker 2 00:16:43 Abso oh no book week. Oh my God. You know, it's not my natural state of play. Mm I'm much better off in the closet. Mm. But that's something I need to work on and I really want to work on it and push myself to develop those skills this year.
Speaker 1 00:17:00 Yeah. And certainly kids love seeing authors don't they, they love having a chat and
Speaker 2 00:17:05 Yeah, I took my, um, nephews to part of the, the children's aspect of the Freemantle writer's festival. And they were like, eh, and, but as soon as this author started talking and he had them engaged and we went off to find his book and this <laugh> yeah. It's a really, it is a big part of it.
Speaker 1 00:17:26 Mm-hmm <affirmative> and the parents get to see you as well. Of course. And so they're going to have the same sort of experience as their kids anyway. Oh, that's the author and we know her now and that's gonna get the books. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:17:37 Yes, yeah, exactly what we did. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:17:39 <affirmative> so, Paula, what are you working on next
Speaker 2 00:17:42 At the moment I'm working on Atlas eyes and Wininger and trouble from the, from beyond it's another supernatural book, but the main character is a, a 13 year old boy and everything sucks. Um, he just wants to be normal, but he's in this family that he's is weird, but he, um, ends up working out a family secret and it just takes him off on this supernatural tangent there, he has to forget about being normal and, and laying under the eye level and just playing it. Cool. And just embrace all his crazy specialness, I guess. I've just been one of those kids that had the imagination that the dolls were coming alive and that the grandparents were coming back from the dead <laugh>, you know, as a seven year old. Yeah. I'd thought of the other and how exciting and interesting that is and terrifying that is, um,
Speaker 1 00:18:33 In the creative space, it gives you endless possibilities too, doesn't it? Yes.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 It
Speaker 1 00:18:38 Does sort of do anything in that world. And so it creates the perfect mechanism or perfect medium in a way to be able to explore all sorts of different problems and issues and come up with quite innovative solutions. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:18:51 Yeah. With the safety net of yeah. The magical. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:18:54 Yeah. Yeah. What is your message to the audience about storytelling,
Speaker 2 00:18:59 Reading, and storytelling? Uh, a part of who we are, it's, it's a very basic part of who we are and it kind of annoys me that authors and, and, um, writers and illustrators don't get the sort of monetary validation that perhaps a footballer does. And yet people still like their Netflix and their stories and their books. Um, I kind of feel that we're undervalued, but really stories at the heart of it. Everyone has their own story. Everyone has a family story trusting in yourself. And sometimes you've gotta say, as Lily would say people to logic, you know, story is important.
Speaker 1 00:19:45 Well, we live our life through stories. Don't we, that's how we remember. And that's how we learn. And that's how we pass on the stories to the next generation. So completely agree with you there, Paula.
Speaker 2 00:19:53 That's everything. Everything to me. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:19:57 Well, Paula, thank you for chatting to us today.
Speaker 2 00:20:00 Yeah. If we PO
Speaker 1 00:20:01 <laugh> well, thank you listeners. If you enjoyed our chat today, subscribe to the Freeman press podcast on apple podcast, Google play, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Helen Milroy and I have been your host today. Join me next time. As we continue our journey into everything books I for now.
