Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:14 Welcome to the special edition of the free mantle press podcast. Today, we are recording in wop in wa butcher, and I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. This is a place of bull, but which means many stories. And I'd also like to acknowledge our first nations peoples as the first storytellers right across Australia. My name is Helen murro and I absolutely love kids books. I'm also an author and an illustrator, and I love hosting this podcast because we get to talk to fabulous and interesting people about their books. So today we're joined by Ashika co-creator of the book stars in their eyes with Jessica Walton Ashika is an energetic visual storyteller, illustrator and science communicator, who is a path advocate for visual literacy. She has illustrated 10 published books and is a regular contributor to the school magazine and other children's publications. She is also part of many creative organizations and for four years was the illustrator co-coordinators for the society of children's book writers and illustrators Australia west. She's also a recipient of several government arts grants, prizes, and the mags fellowship. Ash, welcome. Thanks
Speaker 2 00:01:31 For having me. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:01:32 Wow. That's a, that's a pretty amazing bio and I know we've got a little bit more about that coming up later on in the show. So I'm really, really happy to be speaking to you today. You call yourself a visual storyteller. I'm just wondering whether you'd like to explore with our listeners today, what that really means for you.
Speaker 2 00:01:49 Yeah. Um, so I guess, uh, very early on through various manifestations of, of my careers and lives, I realized that I was really interested in, uh, explaining things through visuals. And when I finally kind of landed in the publish sector, I got a lot of projects and that included things like doing middle grade books or working on picture books, then doing comics and graphic novels. And I've realized that all of those contributions are very different. I am required, uh, not just to do what I would classically think an illustrator's job is, but also do things like design layout, problem solve for the publisher. I've had publishers approach me with the manuscript and weren't even sure if it could be, uh, visualized. So, but being a person was bringing forth, um, kind of like a, you know, an expertise by having a dimension in their brain.
Speaker 2 00:02:38 That's very visual. I can help out with, uh, reframing and re kind of repackaging certain ideas visually. So I think that illustration is part of that, but also there's so many other jobs involved with that. Um, and I also just wanna say that I'm not alone in thinking that illustrator is a bit of a strange, outdated term. It has a lot of baggage with it, kind of like the word comics as well. Illustration actually comes from the times where to illustrate was to depict what is seen. So it was kind of like copying reality. And before we had photography in advertising, illustrators would just draw and paint realistic versions of basically something that wanted to be displayed and sold. But of course now the illustrating, uh, industry and, and community is rich. It's all about independent creation. It's about, um, like basically intelligence, like intelligently showing things, making visual metaphors, you taking people on a journey. And, and I feel like the term is so insufficient to describe the amount of agency that people have. So I suppose this is why I like to call myself a visual storyteller, but then it makes people poor was and kind of maybe reassess, what is it that I'm doing rather than just take for granted that I'm drawing pictures that describe what someone's written?
Speaker 1 00:03:47 Yeah, that's a much, much broader description and a multiplicity of roles as you described. So I guess part of that role came really to the fore as the co-creator of stars in their eyes. Tell us little bit about how that came about,
Speaker 2 00:04:01 I guess, um, it was free mental press who has had the idea of seeing the short story and thinking what a great think it would be to turn it into a young people's graphic novel, uh, when Jess adapted their short story into a, a screenplay essentially, which was a, a, like a long conversation between characters, uh, it fleshed out their identity and their characteristics. It was really a, a fantastic resource to be able to imagine and understand what they're like as well as obviously the storyline. It was then handed over to me with a hope that I could yeah. Make the graphic novel out of that text. So essentially, uh, what that involved was <laugh> was quite a few steps, but here I would like to maybe just compare it to doing a picture book. So I think with the picture book, there are definitely two definite roles.
Speaker 2 00:04:53 If, if you are collaborating, of course. So you would have the, the text of the picture book, which is written in a particular way, there's a rhythm and you straight away know where the text will fall on each spread. It it's pretty much split up into spreads. And so the writer actually envisages the turning of the pages and they know where the text will be. And then the illustrator of the artist comes along and, uh, basically responds to the text on each spread. And that could be done in so many different ways. And it can be, you know, very imaginative and, and, um, most like contradictory, they can develop a whole alternative story, but they are working with the guidance of the words on each page. So this is why I think there's two jobs there because the screenplay doesn't have a vision for how it's going to be a graphic novel.
Speaker 2 00:05:34 It has a vision for the characters and the story, but then the middle job is to design the structure. It's kind of, I call it engineer airing, basically it's envisaging how the text will be paired down flow from bubble to bubble in a very intuitive way. So no one is ever ejected how it flows from panel to panel, how the panels move over page turns. And then of course, what roughly would be in each panel, the idea of how you slow down and speed up the visually that story, whether you're going to depict the character speaking or whether you're going to depict what they're talking about, of course the angles, whether you're showing their faces or their hands, all of this stuff is engineering because it direct how you want the reader to feel with the given text in the medium of graphic novels that is before you start drawing, this is not the, what I would call, you know, the illustration or the art rendering, because you could then give this structure to the third person who then would go and make the artwork.
Speaker 2 00:06:32 Or you could get someone who, you know, does isn't even like the most amazing artist to do, do this. And it would still be a good comic if the engineering was done, right? Because for me, comics are like an experience, you know, you enter this vehicle and then you ride, but rather than a movie that kind of does it all for you, you put the elements together in your head to make the experience happen. And, you know, that's kind of why that's so addictive because you get to part in the making, but that is not accidental, right? The structure and the engineering is, you know, what I really think is what, what makes the, the, the medium of that graphic novel. And that's the delivery, the package, I guess, of the story
Speaker 1 00:07:09 That sounds like quite a sort of unique skillset from what you are actually saying in terms of not just sort of visualization. It, it's really a, a lot of planning and organizational stuff that goes into how this is gonna look and feel and be seen and experienced,
Speaker 2 00:07:25 You know, definitely being able to see things as a movie helps. So people you talk to will often say, yes, I just see a movie scene. And then you kind of imagine how you want to guide the viewer because of the kind of trolls we already used to seeing movies and how the camera angle works, where the closeups are. And you know that by putting those panels, which is what we call, uh, screenshots in, in comics, when you put those panels together in the reader's minds. Yeah. They will very much see a movie, you know, it will be moving for them. But then of course, apart from that, you then have, um, a whole kind of idea of design and layout, understanding how spatially to place things on a page, understanding that, you know, every spread is two pages, but then you wanna turn it, how can you interact with that?
Speaker 2 00:08:03 Um, geography to, uh, have your story flow. You know, if you put a lot of panels close together, you create movement in action. And there's a lot of stuff and people just don't, don't spend more time looking at each box, but they are going to get an idea of that. The story is moving quickly. However, some, sometimes you might wanna make the reader stay and feel, and this is where it's good to remove words and have some sort of really detailed, well rendered scenes. So people really get the textures and the other senses involved. So yeah, it, it is, you know, basically manipulating readers emotions, which is what we can do with writing and, and pure illustration as well. But it is done in a continuous way through moving from panel to panel. So there is, you know, hundreds and hundreds of decisions to be made. Visual language is not hard and fast. It is flexible. And so you always have to test what you've done. You give it to other people and they don't get it. If you have to explain it to them, then you have missed something and you have to rework that part of it. Comics have to be road tested. It's um, yeah, it's, it's a language that needs to work on your reader,
Speaker 1 00:09:06 Quite a universal language, actually, isn't it, given that those visual images can be read by anybody? It, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:09:12 It's very interesting. It's definitely culture, uh, depend the, but today, yeah, the culture is international, but sorry to kind of come back in a really big arc through your original question. What happened in our particular case is when I got Jess, uh, justice, screenplay, I, I got to work on it for about three months kind of thinking about how I'm going to build that structure. And then I was able to talk to Jess and I was really important of course, because even though I identify with Mae quite a lot, the main character in stars and rice, mainly because I was always the weird kid, but I'm also very stubborn, so I would refuse to kind of change. So I had this like dichotomy of being able to going, yeah, that's the way I am, but also feeling anxious about that. And I think Mae has a similar feeling, obviously for different reasons.
Speaker 2 00:09:54 Like she can't changed the fact that she's an amputee, but I totally understand the feelings that ma has is conflicting kind of sides to her. Um, and I really like that about her, but talking to Jess was just even this other dimension about what it's like to have an amputation. I mean, I spent a lot of time watching videos and doing research if you always spoke, but it was really, really interesting and instrumental in understanding the character and then just was so kind to send me, uh, a bunch of videos. I need to understand how amazing would move with a prosthetic leg or with crutches and how she would get off the floor. And, you know, simple things like out of the car, you know, this is vulnerable to ask Jess those things, but they were really awesome in standing me those videos. And they were so useful in me analyzing that, move my, and being able to put that in the story. And I guess also reflecting just themselves in that character
Speaker 1 00:10:42 Sounds like a lot of trust had to be developed for that process to work well.
Speaker 2 00:10:46 Yeah. I, I felt that that was, uh, that was really great and I appreciated that a lot. And for me, you know, that experience is also so special ever every time I work on a project with someone you have this quite had a personal connection to their artistic and creative and also life story. And that's a privilege for me to, to be able to put part of that. But yeah, I mean, ultimately I suppose making comics is a very solitary task. So, uh, after having that information, then I, you know, I, I went off one other, I dunno, eight months and worked on the final line work where you do more refining of your story and engineering, you know, part, but then you actually draw the characters and you think about all the crazy stuff there goes with that, which is basically what do they look like? How do they move? What clothes do they wear? How are we gonna show, you know, their nervous ticks and their, uh, little, I Syras,
Speaker 1 00:11:34 It sounds like there was a lot of, um, emphasis on making that very realistic by actually having that real life experience with Jessica as part of that process and the videos and the images and things like that, that you were able to draw from.
Speaker 2 00:11:48 And of course, I knew that this story is so important to all the people who've never seen themselves represented in that way. So they are the, the ones who have to connect to it. So if I was just pretending that I knew what was being talked about, it would become very clear quickly, like my earlier work, my story with Paul Russell, which was about dyslexia. Um, you know, that was very interesting thinking about like working with the children and having of what, what actually worked and didn't, so yeah, I take that very seriously. I mean, if you are going to be a, a visual storyteller, then you are telling the story and, and some people will just look at that part of it. So they need to get the same feeling and information from you as they get from the other side, the other party.
Speaker 1 00:12:31 So as you've had some really amazing success with this book, uh, which is a children's book council of Australia notable book, and recently made it into the short list for the earlier graphic novel award, I think what's most exciting for Freemantle press is, is the fact that the book is also going to America to be published there in 2023. Did you have to make any adjustments for a different audience? Um, different country?
Speaker 2 00:12:56 Yeah. There, there were definitely adjustments to be made. I, I initially really worried that it would be quite a lot of adjustments. Um, there was talk of changing the ending, and that of course is a huge amount of work from my side, uh, on a project that in my mind has been, has some sort of closure to it, you know? So it's kind of hard to her into something after a few months of, uh, moving on to other things, but no, actually in the end, um, the changes were quite interesting. They have very thorough, uh, sensitivity reading, uh, policies and a lot of multi, multi editing checks, like even little things like how many hairpins does Mai have on the left and the right hand side of her head, you know, easy things for us here to overlook as, as much as we may try to, to, uh, keep that in mind.
Speaker 2 00:13:40 So those little things all came back and I had to fix them. And, you know, there was a lot of little changes. Luckily I didn't have to change the, the orientation of the, um, steering wheel on the car because there is some driving involved in the book and of course it's Australia in face. I was really happy about that. And also we had to add some extra pages to the book, which was fun because I love designing books. You know, a lot of the books I illustrate and work on, I also design. So I'll be the last person to kind of touch the files before they get sent to the printer. So that means I choose the font and then I lay out the BM print pages and the pages before and after, and that's a really cool font it to do and be part of, and with the American version, there was just like more things we could play
Speaker 1 00:14:20 With and were the exercise as well, given the extra audience that you get to deliver your book to so well done. That's absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2 00:14:27 Yeah. I think we're both looking forward to that. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:14:30 As I'm interested to know how you got into this whole field in the first place, it sounds to me you've had a bit of a journey and I also am aware that you hold a degree, um, both in arts and in physics, which is a, you know, an interesting backstory. So, so tell us how all of this came about,
Speaker 2 00:14:48 I guess. Yeah, my first profession, my first calling was physics and in many ways it was because I was encouraged when I was young to follow some sort of artistic direction, but being me, I said, how dare you tell me what to do. I am going to do mathematics and, and physics, which to me is very visual. You know, when I think of maths, it's a language of graphs and visualizing movements, tendencies patterns. So
Speaker 1 00:15:09 I did wonder <inaudible> where the, of the sort of physics side of things helped you with your engineering.
Speaker 2 00:15:14 <laugh> definitely, yeah. The organization of thought is useful. Uh <laugh> but yeah, physics was definitely a, a great thing. I, I enjoyed a lot, the freedom. It gave me to travel to meet a lot of new people. It kind of taught me not to fear the unknown, but rather just approach it with this set of skills. So it doesn't really matter what field, uh, I have a problem in. I know that rather than panicking, which, you know, would be a natural first reaction <laugh> is to just go, you know, I'm gonna try to sort this out, physically write it down and then workshop what at some of the things I could do. And that's actually a really, really cool tool to be given for life, uh, and creativity as well. And actually, while I was doing it because I was working on, uh, quantum celebration and quantum optics, a lot of people in my near circle, my family didn't really wanna get engaged in my explanations.
Speaker 2 00:16:01 So I thought this is not good enough. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna start making comics and little cartoons that try to explain some of the concepts and maybe make them much more easy to understand. I, and I was very, I was scolded for that in my department. People were worrying that my thesis wouldn't be taken seriously if I had cartoons in it and that it was belittling somehow the importance of the work. But, you know, I really didn't think that that was, uh, an issue. And I know that later after I graduated, I had some requests from other PhD students to make similar work for their thesis. And because it is such a great way to communicate.
Speaker 1 00:16:36 Oh, absolutely. You found a way to translate incredibly complex concepts into something that people could actually understand. I think it's amazing.
Speaker 2 00:16:46 Yeah. And engage with, I guess, emotionally, you know, a lot of people turn off the emotion when you start talking as they go, ah, the emotion is panic, but then what happened was I realized that physics is what I call a jealous mistress and, uh, you can have no others. Uh, and I am, you know, I'm full of, uh, energy and interest. And I want to do lots of things, whether it's creativity and performance travel and even outreach. So I just decided that I was going to change what I was doing and, and to the visual part of my interest,
Speaker 1 00:17:15 A lot of people find that transition really difficult. And they sort of have to kind of almost build up a level of courage to, to take that leap of faith almost. How was that for you?
Speaker 2 00:17:25 Yeah, it was definitely challenging. You know, this is very early on in my life. I mean, my, um, probably mid twenties and at that point I've been climbing, you know, been climbing this ladder of, I dunno if I call it success, but you know, some sort of achievement because it works on scholarship basis. So to get into a smaller and smaller, uh, specialization, you are getting closer and closer to certain groups that do that research in the world and they fund you to go places these summer schools and being hosted in different universities, being paid, you know, to play with lasers. So, you know, it was important. And then suddenly to say, you know what, I'm leaving it all behind. It was stressful. It was stressful for not only me, but also the department, for example, that would have me because the, the money that was given to them, what would happen to it.
Speaker 2 00:18:08 So, you know, it was really for someone who was so young, I I guess, and lacking certain perspective and, and maybe even in some way, you know, value of the, how important my mental health and my, uh, commitment to myself is, but I'm really glad I did it, you know, and I will say to anyone young, who's listening today, it's actually really great to change your mind. Like, don't worry if you start doing something and after a year or two, uh, you decide that it's not for you because what you'll actually end up with is an amazing set of extra skills. Those skills are always going to be useful. You know, it's, it's like versus having one straight, uh, career path all your life to getting three, you suddenly have a very niche market.
Speaker 1 00:18:49 What you think helped you along the way in that transition. Were there particular things or people that, that, that helped you to sort of kind of cement that progress forward?
Speaker 2 00:18:57 Oh, definitely. Uh, you know, my, my parents were great help. I, I did, I know they were always very proud of me and my achievements, but, uh, they were also very supportive, which was great. I also remember right at the end when I was having really difficult time by this stage, I was in Denmark, in Copenhagen working for meals for Institute. And I started going to the libraries there and just to relax, to read their amazing graphic novel collections. Cause at that point, Australian graphic, novel collections, uh, went that expensive. And I found these books by a guy called Dave McKee. Some of you might know him because he used to a lot of stuff with Neil game and he's a fine artist. And he was doing very early digital collages as well as painting and ink work. I mean, his comics were about an everyday experiences about a smell of coffee, about sound of music, about emotional, uh, turmoil. And I thought, this is what I wanna do. I remember having this moment thinking, I don't know, what's gonna have expert. I want to be going in that direction, the beauty and the poetry of what he was able to achieve visually with minimum amount of words that really clicked looking back. I think that was a, a really nice to have that marker there. Like that's what I'm heading towards.
Speaker 1 00:20:05 Did you do a lot of reading as a kid? Did you have a favorite book of, of any description and, and perhaps what did that to you growing up?
Speaker 2 00:20:13 Uh, I'm an only child and I was left to my own devices a lot too. Basically I used myself, so I would read, but when I was really little, I lived in Poland, so I don't really have any contact with that part of my life anymore. I don't, wouldn't be able to tell you what most of the books were. However, there was this one series of comics, the written by a guy called S um, they're really kind of late eighties, uh, adventure stories of little characters done in a very psychedelic style. But the most amazing thing about those comics is that the characters are aware that they're in the book and they'll interact with the panels and they'll interact with the pages. They'll rip through them. Through the other side, they'll fold things up, they'll even interact with the maker and the maker's hand that will sometimes appear, you know, in these comics. And to me as a child, I will never forget what impact that had, because that made me understand that everything was very, my, there was no straight divisions between reality and fiction and words and images and, you know, feelings and, and real concrete things. I really started to think that, um, yeah, there was no
Speaker 1 00:21:20 Rules that anything is possible.
Speaker 2 00:21:22 Yes, exactly. I really thought that broke the world and, you know, especially that I was kind of leaving in quite cruel great and sad times outside. So having these books that were super colorful and really out there, um, basically formed my imagination for forged it in, in some sort of open and Unbound way.
Speaker 1 00:21:39 Great. So where do you get your inspiration from now?
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Uh, other people's work is always really inspiring. Um, as much as I'm not a huge fan of, so social media, I do really enjoy going through Instagram and looking at how other people are working, what they're doing. Um, sometimes that little thing will spark of something two weeks later. And if I go with an idea, uh, even listening to music and seeing people perform music or going and see fine art exhibitions, um, anything that where people are creating storytelling, uh, yeah. In fact, ideas are really never a problem. It's more time finding time to <laugh> realize them. How
Speaker 1 00:22:17 Long does it take from that sort of that process to kind of really get embedded and then to actually get to the end point for some people, it seems it could be 10, 20 years for others. It's, you know, a matter of weeks or what's that process like for you?
Speaker 2 00:22:30 I think that it depends on how deep you're digging with the idea. So a lot of the time when I have a deadline with a publisher, I need to get inspired quickly. So <laugh>, so you will then surround yourself with these ideas and work on it night and day. And then it is really frustrating for a long time. You're pushing a rock up a very steep heel nothing's happening so times for a week or two. And you just, you get a little bit anxious, but eventually by pure work and putting the hours in, you actually start to see things cut less. And that is a great moment. So that's the way that that would be a relatively, you know, short time because I have no choice, but if I'm working on like a love project, oh, it could be years. I mean, there, I'm working on now that has been brewing for about seven years and there are years where I haven't touched it, but it's, it's been growing into just new dimensions because of my life experience and my more informed view of what it is that I'm working on. So sounds
Speaker 1 00:23:24 Like a journey.
Speaker 2 00:23:26 Yeah. You know, that's beautiful, but that's of course, because it's a private project. It just like, almost like a baby that you're.
Speaker 1 00:23:32 Yeah. And it's very precious and you don't wanna let it go yet. <laugh> so with, with that, um, and how you've described that, have you have there been periods of time when you felt quite frustrated in the process and, and how do you overcome those kind of periods where it might feel like it's all not going as well as you'd liked?
Speaker 2 00:23:51 Yeah. Look, every project, uh, as I said, has the same, um, graph if you grafted and the beginning is always pushing the rock up the hill. It, it, the, the period of that depends on, on a lot of things, but I just know it's going to be there. Like I just accept that the beginning is not gonna be easy, that I'm gonna, um, have to sleep on it quite a few times. I often lay my work up on a floor and then I'll come back to it. Um, because I work digitally. Um, I always make sure I print everything at actual size, especially even with the initial sketches and stuff, uh, playing with design or, you know, with the words or images will be, that's really important. Guess there's something in our brain, you know, that's just, it's about physicality. The screen can be misleading.
Speaker 2 00:24:30 Um, and I guess their books end up being physical anyway. Uh, but yeah, so that's always, uh, frustrating, but I think for me, another thing is change. I always have few things on the goal and, um, it's easy then if I change suddenly, it is really, I believe that change is as good as a holiday. It really does shift your brain in a different gear and you're doing something in, I'm not just sitting there pulling my hair <laugh>, uh, and also getting out, you know, like I find that on one side, my personalities, that I would love to sit in my house and just work, work, work forever. But what actually ends up happening is that after a week or two of doing that, I start throw use at the screen because I get so frustrated with myself. That's
Speaker 1 00:25:10 Funny,
Speaker 2 00:25:10 The it's so important, right. To go out and talk to people to go and do whether it's performances or workshops to whether see friends and catch up and tell them about what's annoying you, uh, to go outside and I don't know, see a park or seen exhibition. I've learned, <laugh> the hard, this is the way, even though things like your time waste at the time when you're really stressed, it's really important, um, to move through those difficult periods.
Speaker 1 00:25:33 I was gonna say to you that while I was gonna ask you about how you do look after yourself, because this is a tricky industry and it has its ups and downs, um, is, is that part of the process for you to stay healthy is trying to get that balance, you know, clearly you wanna be in there doing the work and, and just really escape into that creative space, but there's a reality that you need for yourself as a, as a person, as a human, in a way that sort of interaction with others and being out and about, and being part of the world
Speaker 2 00:26:01 Ex exactly. I'm pretty good at routines. So I have a routine where I'll go cycling every morning. Um, yeah, I'll just get on a bike before I even can make a decision that it's a bad idea and go, and it's always a great to come back and, and feel, you know, refreshed. And I will be sitting for most of the day after that. So that,
Speaker 1 00:26:20 And, um, I think a healthy mind probably means less throwing shoes at the, at these screens. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:26:25 Exactly screens are expensive. Ash.
Speaker 1 00:26:28 What do you want children in particular to get out of your books?
Speaker 2 00:26:33 Um, I think my main objective is for them to make their own stories, that to have the freedom, to do that, to be able to have just enough elements to then start putting it together, make their own voices, weave, maybe alternative endings or sequels in their minds, and then feel brave enough to go and, and maybe start drawing their own little books. Um, yeah. I just want them to feel that the characters have a life beyond that page and that other things could happen to them. And, uh, the kids actually, the masters of that,
Speaker 1 00:27:04 What do you think you want the parents to get out of it?
Speaker 2 00:27:07 The fun of the kids just winging it, like seeing your child add to the story, or maybe try to read it or tell you what's happening in the story, according to their version, there's something so cool about not having to correct and say, well, this is not the way it's done. Uh, and knowingly, we do try to helps you, oh, this is not how you use this thing. You do it like that. And then we kind of close the door almost right. When you think about it, the beauty of being a kid is that you wanna turn things upside down and shake them and press the button, or maybe invent something completely new. And so I, I hope that, uh, yeah, it just gives parents that moment of joy to see their kids kind of doing that with their impromptu storytelling and being whatever it may be. That's I kind of would love that joy. I would, you
Speaker 1 00:27:46 Know, it's a wonderful part of, I think being a parent is having that creative process with your child and just creating something new and imaginative and magical together. You can't really recreate that in any other way. It's just, it just happens in the moment. And I think that's a wonderful way to connect with, uh, uh, parents and children. Ash, there any final words for us today?
Speaker 2 00:28:07 Well, I would say that, um, I really do hope that we are going to start taking images as seriously as we do words, especially in, um, in schools and education. I think that, um, when you think about language, it's just a subsection of drawing, like letters are just symbols and they create all this language and you can create just as rich of a language with line work on white paper. So I, I would, um, yeah, I would just warn that, not doing that means that we are resulting a society of people who have visually illiterate, but yet all of our communication is multi, you know, you think about your social media accounts and all the advertising and propaganda and the ideas and news we get is, is a combination of, uh, little sound bites and visuals. And we have to be able to critically assess that. And we can only really do that if we taught that. So, uh, I would say, you know, let's enjoy books, let's have fun and let's read more comics and picture books, but I think it's important to also study them at school and, and because it is a serious thing and it will help us all. So,
Speaker 1 00:29:13 Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I think, um, much more visual literacy would be a very, very, very good thing. So absolutely a hundred percent behind you there on that one. Ashika thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.
Speaker 2 00:29:25 Thanks so much. It's been an absolute pleasure
Speaker 1 00:29:28 Listeners. You can find styles in their eyes in all good bookstores and online at free mantel, press.com.au. If you enjoyed our chat today, subscribe to the free mantel press podcast on apple podcasts, Google play, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. My name is Helen murro and I have been your host today. Join me next time as we continue our journey into everything.
