Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Welcome to the how to be an author in Australia podcast. This is a podcast for writers who want to become published authors. We promise to go behind the scenes in the book industry, talking to people who love books, just as much as we do. I'm Georgia Richter. And this is my co-host Claire
Speaker 1 00:00:22 Miller. And later we'll be
Speaker 0 00:00:24 Joined by the comma chameleon who will hit us with a quiz from the editor. What have you been working on this week? Georgia spending a lot of time on petticoat parade, which is the name of the red light district, primarily rose street that was in east Perth. And it was very active between the start of the 20th century through to the 1960s. And what's really interesting is reading about when the prostitutes and the brothel keepers and the madams wind up in court to see how sensationalist the reporting is and how disrespectful of the women, there's this real kind of moral high ground that, that operates. And there is no sense whatsoever that the subjects of the stories have any feelings, it's all for the readers entertainment. So they might be described as Slaton Lee or terrible examples of womanhood or whatever. And it seems like we've probably come quite a long way actually in the way that we report stories.
Speaker 2 00:01:26 I guess that kind of segues into our Aussie slang because when we were looking at Aussie slang ourselves this morning, there was quite a lot of it that was derogatory to women and derogatory, derogatory to animals as well. There's a lot of violence against animals in our slang.
Speaker 0 00:01:41 There's quite a lot of violence that's actually trapped within our language or contained within it and held within it. But I'm not sure if you have a sense when you were younger too, of, of choosing and using language that kind of uses a buffer. Cause it, it masculinized as you more or protects you in some way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:01:59 To get by in primary school and high school, you really had to adopt a male stance and be able to give as
Speaker 0 00:02:06 Good as you got. It's also about a deliberate kind of a galitary aneurysm and a way of taking people down a notch. You know, the way that we call polys Scoma or hockey or elbow, we have a way of of saying now you're one of us don't rise too far above your station. I think a lot of our history is actually contained within our slang in different ways.
Speaker 2 00:02:26 Um, although I'm highly offended by Scotty, from marketing as a marketer, what have you gotten? Yeah. What have you got against marketers?
Speaker 0 00:02:33 But what's really interesting about that, I think is that initially he was called <inaudible> perhaps in a derogatory way, then he claimed that. So another name had to be found for him so that it could be used in the negative. And I think Australians are very agile in their languages. It's really, it can also just be playful and fun. And I love, I love the kind of slang that's come out of, uh, the pandemic as well. Kwanzaa is my all-time favorite ISO ISO another one. And how Australians will almost take the bogey, the bogeyman out of something by reducing taking the piss. Yeah, yeah. Shortening it, taking the piss. Yeah, exactly
Speaker 2 00:03:18 How we segue from this two and a segment that's going to be on, um, children's literature. I'm not really sure. Got any ideas, Georgia,
Speaker 0 00:03:25 None.
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Um, let's mention the war. Um, I actually was thinking about a trip that I did to Munich a few years back and after the second world war and amazing woman named Yella, Littmans created a space for children's books and it's called the international youth library and they have around half a million books there, 60,000 or so that are like historical texts. And then another over 30,000 books that are in different languages. So they represented around 130 different languages. And what their whole reason for being is they want to be able to give children the experience of diversity through literature. Um, and they also want to uphold the rights of children to have the freedom, to create art down the track. So there's this amazing castle called Glutenburg castle on the outskirts of Munich.
Speaker 0 00:04:24 Do you have access to the texts themselves? Are you allowed to look at
Speaker 2 00:04:27 Them? We have a long-standing relationship with them because the library runs something called the white Ravens. Um, and that's a list of the hundred best books from around the world. And so we have been working with a lovely lady named Claudia, who is the Australian specialist, and we send our books to her on a regular basis and they get assessed by a team of people and they choose some of them to go into the library and in the permanent collection. And some of them are put on the white Ravens list. So because of that relationship, when I was going there, I contacted them and they said, yeah, come along and we'll give you a tour. And I got this amazing guided tour. So they took me down into the basement and I saw all of the books there, this rows and rows and rows of books in this gorgeous, cool, um, sealed off basement in, in the castle. And they'd just finished this, um, project where somebody had to stand and vacuum every single page of every single book in the library to get rid of dust so that they could sort of hermetically seal it and keep all these books for future generations. So that was an, that was an awesome experience here where they deliberate.
Speaker 2 00:05:34 I'm not sure I didn't ask about staff signs, but I would not be surprised if they were a liberal and that yeah. As you know, I've been creating those bookcases at my house, making sure that everything's behind glass and dust, can't get to my books, no vacuuming for you. No vacuuming for me, no stuff that, but, um, he knows he's a Virgo. He might actually vacuum our books before they went in there. Um, but the other really exciting thing is they have permanent exhibitions. And so I really loved the book as a child, um, by Michael ender called the never-ending story. I really just thought that was a fantastic book and they have his office and all of his working area was sent to the museum back in the nineties after he died. And so you can go there and see where he worked and see all his personal effects and the library that he had near him when he was writing his books and lots of translations of books as well. So it's just a fantastic place to visit when COVID is over. And we can go out all of this chat does in fact segue into our special guests interview you today.
Speaker 0 00:06:32 Yes. We've got Leslie Reese from the literature center joining us soon,
Speaker 2 00:06:37 But first let's hear a tip from editor and writer. Amanda K,
Speaker 3 00:06:41 Hello, this is Amanda Curtin. And I'm one of the authors who contributed to the Fremantle press book, how to be an author. The business of being a writer in Australia, I've published four books. Uh, the most recent one is Kathleen O'Connor of Paris, which is a worker creative. Non-fiction about a brilliant artist and an extraordinary life. The tip I always give aspiring writers is a really simple one. It's read it's through reading that we learn consciously through disecting craft, examining how writers achieve what they do, and also unconsciously through absorbing things like language and rhythm and structure. So my advice is read widely read. Adventurously read analytically as well as just for the sheer joy of it. Good readers, I think have the best chance of becoming good writers. Good luck
Speaker 2 00:07:43 Race founded the literature center in 1992. She has earned numerous awards for her work in promoting quality, Australian literature for children and young adults. And she's a member of the order of Australia for her services to literature and a recipient of the Australian children's book councils, Nan Chauncey award. Leslie is motivated by her belief that our children and young adults need to be steeped in the best of Australian literature and that those who create it should be promoted and nurtured. Welcome, Leslie, thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Can you tell us a little bit about the literature center and what
Speaker 4 00:08:18 The whole idea was to make sure that our children and our teenagers are steeped into the best quality Australian books? It doesn't mean I don't want them to read the best of the other British and American books, but I want them to be exposed to ours as well as, and probably before the others. And I am firmly of the belief and always have been that the quality of our books in this country is equal. If not better than many of those, that gain huge circulation elsewhere in the world. I want to make sure that the authors who are already established and the authors in Australia to want to be published, I want them to be nurtured and made to believe how important it is that they create Australian stories for our child. So, Leslie, what sorts of
Speaker 0 00:09:03 Events does the center run then?
Speaker 4 00:09:07 Well, we have a very vast school's program and then we have a public program. So the public program, the aim of that is to have free events to which parents, grandparents, children, interested people from the sector like yourselves can come along. So we have an annual Leslie raise, free mental lecture named not after me, but the famous Leslie Reese. We have an Australian storytellers festival, which we just had with many of your wonderful authors present that's full day festival free for families and children. We have open galleries. So we have many events that people can come to for the public, because we want to raise awareness of again, the quality literature that you will produce. The other thing is our scores program, which is very diverse. We have wonderful education officers who work within exhibitions of picture books at the center with classes. They go out on residents to schools and libraries in the metropolitan rural regional area. We have a very vast young writers program where like-minded children can come and they can come four days a year and work for a whole day with a wonderful author. Part of that is that it's all over the state. We take it Albany Bunbury, Busselton up in the Pillbra all over the place. So many different programs, all of which for the same thing, wanting children to love literature, believe they can be part of it and want adults and authors and people to feel nurtured. Um,
Speaker 2 00:10:28 And so you have nurtured many Australian talents over the years, or the kinds of things writers need in their personality or makeup to be a success
Speaker 4 00:10:36 And interesting one short term. Yeah, I was sure he would be a success. If people had the courage to publish him, he was always there and believed in himself. Um, James Foley, I always knew he would be published if he had the discipline and it was clear that he had the discipline. You know, you have to have the talent, but you have to have the discipline that's you to know very, very well. Marcus Suzak. I met at his very first public event and I thought this man's got it all. He's very young. He's got it all. If he can keep being who he is, he will make a big name for himself. I invited him just after hearing him once. So yeah, I think there's something individually about them. And again, do you have the discipline to keep going? And that resilience to be knocked back by Melina?
Speaker 4 00:11:21 Marchetta not back by everybody until penguin Eric and I picked it up, uh, Liliana Stafford, um, is one that I always mentioned because she'd come to absolutely everything. She'd come to every book launch every open day and persisted was not back had that quiet assurance that she still has today. That what she'd written was special. My record, one of your people, another beautiful, quiet, gentle creator who had, again, that individual belief in her own work. So there's, there's many, many people that come to mind. And if we sat here, I could probably talk for two hours just on that topic.
Speaker 2 00:12:00 So it sounds like it's really important for new and emerging writers to get involved in some of your programs.
Speaker 4 00:12:06 Well, I think they need to find their, their tribe. And in this state, we are so lucky that the tribe has got many facets to it. We've got the society of children's book writers Australia's which in a sense took over part of our role of doing professional learning and things. We did that for many years, but once scrubby got going, they started doing those wonderful rottenness retreats and professional learning sessions. The children's book council, um, this, the librarians, teacher, librarians, the publisher, yourselves, all of those, I think we're so lucky in WUA that we all actually support each other rather than being seen to be in any way. Competition. We all know that what we want to do is get fabulous writers to get fabulous books out to our children and teenagers. Would you say
Speaker 0 00:12:54 Leslie, that children's writers need to be accessible to their readers and do they need to like children
Speaker 4 00:13:01 Roll down, comes to mind. I spent quite a bit of time with his daughter in Dublin, many years ago, what she told me about her father and I'm hating children. I can only think of one author illustrator that I've worked with in all these years that really lows children to rest, I think have a homing instinct they write, or they illustrate for the age group that somehow pulls them in. I think that just happens.
Speaker 2 00:13:29 And what kind of impact on the children do you think it has for them to actually have an author that's accessible that will teach them writing for instance, in some of your workshops?
Speaker 4 00:13:39 Oh, absolutely. It's huge. Which is why we have such a huge interaction with authors and Australia. I always remember beautiful Carrie up in Headland who said, I never thought a girl like me in a town like this would get to be for a whole day with a real life offer because that's what I want to do. And beautiful young man, Daniel in Albany, who said, I love these days, Leslie, because I get to meet all the other secret readers and writers, not only in my school, but in the entire Albany district, they always say real life offers. It's like one of those funny things
Speaker 2 00:14:18 I know a lot of authors are nervous about presenting to children. And I think hearing that impact from you is something so powerful for authors to remember that in a sense, it's not about you as an author, it's about what you're giving to the children.
Speaker 4 00:14:31 It is absolutely. I've had to really be very persuasive to make sure that someone who is very shy and withdrawn comes and we always say, we will be with you. We will manage the sessions. You'll be the star. If you dry up, don't worry. We know the questions to ask. We can get the children up and something, don't worry about it. And I think that's one of the things I'm proudest of that many, many authors in Australia have done their first sessions with us and have built up that confidence at least to know their value, that they are doing something that's worthwhile. We're giving something to the children. So Leslie, you have
Speaker 0 00:15:13 Readers, but then you also have an audience which is the person perhaps who buys the book. So the library and the teacher, the caregiver. Do you think that a writer needs to think about that audience as well as their reader?
Speaker 4 00:15:27 This is the huge question. Isn't it? The vast majority of authors and illustrators that I put up in that top category of being first-class writers with that unique, imaginative flare don't, they've got a story to tell, and then they let it find its place. I mean, look at Holden shepherd and invisible boys. What a gutsy piece of publishing, what an extraordinary book. I was so fearful that the gatekeepers would come in and say, no, quite the opposite has happened. Miraculously schools that I thought would never have Holden out to them or touch that book have welcomed him with open arms and are giving him such positive reviews. Not only about the book, but his impact on young people. I know several authors who write for a market. I don't work with them. I don't like their books to me. As soon as you open it, you know what they're doing? Whereas I want to be enchanted and curious as I read a book and I think
Speaker 2 00:16:26 That's the key for kids as well because kids don't pull any punches, do they? So if they feel they're being marketed to rather than enchanted, they're going to just say it aren't they?
Speaker 4 00:16:35 Okay. Absolutely. And they they're gloriously honest. Jackie French tells lots of funny stories about children coming up to her and saying, oh, my teacher said, I'm too, too old for picture books, but I love them. Jackie.
Speaker 0 00:16:49 I remember going to see Jackie at one of your events. And, and she said, when you see the child in the bookshop and they are hugging a book, that's the book you buy for them. And I think that children are so unerring in their connection to a word they're drawn to it in the same way. I suppose that you're saying a writer is drawn to an age group. It's a relationship that goes both ways.
Speaker 4 00:17:09 One of the things that informed my approach to the center, although I didn't know it at the time was when I had my children were young and we used to go to the singing tree bookshop down Fremantle. And I was able to say to the children, you pick a book, an art, pick a book. And I would say that the vast majority of times the ones they chose with just a suitable and sometimes more so than the ones I chose, because
Speaker 2 00:17:32 There's such a lot of anxiety for caregivers and parents isn't there. It's like they want their kids to have brand in a children's book rather than just the joy of it.
Speaker 4 00:17:41 Yeah. Sweet. We've had a big debate at the center over many years of our books suitable for a certain age. And what the policy really is. We say, you may find that it's just not right for you at this stage, but don't discard it, put it away and come back to in a couple of years, instead of saying, no, you've got to give that type of adult advice because I know myself. It's what you're ready for at a certain time. I think
Speaker 2 00:18:05 If I was a new and emerging writer and I want to pitch myself to you as a possible presenter, what are the steps that I take first?
Speaker 4 00:18:13 You start coming to events that you support the other authors and illustrators. We've had two big launches recently come to them, get a sense of what it is to be a published author or illustrator browse in our exhibitions. Because then you get a sense of the hard work that goes in do that. We tend to try authors for the first time at our big festivals, like the storytellers or open days for center needs to see them to make sure that they can present in a way that we know will empower young children. First advice I always give to anybody is join scrubby society of John's book writers in Australia, go to things at the CBC run and be guts. So
Speaker 0 00:18:52 Let's see. What would you say makes a valuable contributor at an event
Speaker 4 00:18:57 Be interactive. Don't patronize them by standing up there and giving them the same speech. I'm looking for people who can pitch to their audience, being generous. Tell them your bad times. Debra listen made a huge impression on me. When she showed a writing program, students, a few pages of a manuscript that had been refused by her publisher. She was devastated. She showed them three pages where she had told, told, told, not shown, shown and shown. And she said, I want you to have a go at fixing it up. And then she showed them how she'd fixed it up after bawling her eyes out because the publisher had told us she was no good. And that's a generosity that I find they're all prepared to give. And to talk about, to say, it's not easy. If you've got a story, get it out, take advice. And they do that. It's that ability to open up to young people, challenge them, make them work. And don't pretend it's going to be easy. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:19:59 We all want to be invulnerable at talks. But in fact it sounds like they need to be vulnerable
Speaker 4 00:20:04 Show. We want it to be this interactive to and fro, and then the children or the teenagers or Evers in that room gets the very most out of the expertise, the professionalism, the experience that those officers and Australia's are prepared to give they plan it. I know how much planning goes into all of those. The anecdotes, the thing is to make sure you deliver them, but you adapt to the audiences in front of you. Mark Greenwood is another great person. He pitches knows how to pitch dead Fitzpatrick. What a genius. I'm just one of the most wonderful presenters, Mae, McKinley, all of these people, they're so professional. They put so much work into everything, but it appears as if it's the fresh, the first time I'm in order of them. And you know, what is it? 28 years. And I'm still that way.
Speaker 2 00:20:53 I love this idea of telling scared authors. We're going to be there with you, draw on our expertise and let us help you. And I think that anyone who goes out and does events anywhere should be thinking about the expertise of the person that's hosting them and perhaps working with them. Do you agree?
Speaker 4 00:21:12 Absolutely. I, I, I always just say, trust me, trust us. I hadn't realized until a few years ago that a lot of the authors we work with on the writing program say that each year when they come back, they create new workshops because they know they can test them out with us and that the education officers or myself will at the end of the first day say, Hm, I think we need to move that around. That was a bit too long. I think it should drop another reading in here that exercise you weren't quite clear enough in your, the way you explained it. We need to do better tomorrow. And that's wonderful. And during COVID,
Speaker 2 00:21:45 You've been going online quite a bit. So does that mean that your impact has the potential now to reach ASEN states audiences, and
Speaker 4 00:21:53 We're hoping so, so the idea at the moment is we're building up a bank of these series of videos. So next year there's a full program going out year six, year seven, eight and nine 12. We'll each have a bank of ones that they can choose from and that's statewide. And then we push it out. So we pay an initial fee to everyone who does the filming for us. And then according to the uptake and gradually we pay them more. So we hope it will be a bit of a, an income earner for them. Do you have any final
Speaker 0 00:22:21 Advice for aspiring writers?
Speaker 4 00:22:25 Yes. If you want to be published in Australia, make sure you're up to date with what's being published. Come to as many events, run by you by us, by scrubby, CBC, immerse yourself, find out what's going on. Find like-minded people keep writing and don't keep saying, I'm waiting till it's perfect. Enter competitions with the students. We always say, put your writing out there. Do anything. I also say you're going to laugh at this. I say, write letters to the editor about what makes you cross put them out there because is that Georgia or no, no, no. I didn't make myself clear the west Australia, Australia, the Herald papers, because those people there don't know whether you're a teenager and I would person write a fine lettuce. The thrill of seeing yourself in Britain. It's a class that if you were a writer, you need a bit of umph. Ah, there I am. I'm a wordsmith after all.
Speaker 1 00:23:24 Yeah, that's great. I love it. I'm going to smash one out when I get home with that one too. The ABC Angie,
Speaker 4 00:23:32 We believe it works. I really do. That's great. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:36 Thank you so much for talking to us. It's been a real pleasure. And now it's time for the comma chameleon quiz with our
Speaker 0 00:23:53 Mel Davis. Hi, come up. What do you have for us today?
Speaker 5 00:23:57 Well, today I wanted to talk to you about slang.
Speaker 0 00:24:00 Why is slang important?
Speaker 5 00:24:02 I think slang is really important. It's a way to mark yourself as part of a particular group. So it can really give you a sense of belonging. I'm sure a lot of Australians who have traveled overseas have stories of bonding with other Ozzies over the use of terms like servo or thongs, but then again, Australians from different states, clash of a contested Lang like the bay that has versus Causey's versus tugs debate or Palmy versus Palmer.
Speaker 0 00:24:29 Me and Palmer is one actually I, I edited quite recently and it, it caused a little bit of high feeling, I must say, with the author. And the only spelling that the author wanted was the only one that wasn't in the Macquarie dictionary. What spelling was that? I think it was par MII. E he agreed. We'd go with the Macquarie in the end. There you go.
Speaker 2 00:24:49 And what were the other ones? I don't know. I'm a to-go
Speaker 0 00:24:51 Person, but your togs on Eastern state, does that really say I'm an essence data? What are you guys say?
Speaker 5 00:24:58 Yeah, I say I'm, I mean, I wasn't born in Western Australia, but I would like to think I'm a west Australian through and through. So I'm, uh, Bavers and
Speaker 0 00:25:06 Sydney side is a more the Causey type aren't they? Yep. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:10 I have a real problem. Ordering beer here. I always go up and say, can I have a pot? And they say a pot of what?
Speaker 0 00:25:18 So what's the quiz.
Speaker 5 00:25:20 All right. Well, I think the great thing about slang is that it carries a lot of our history. So many slang words have origins in marginalized groups. So I decided to research the origins of a few of Australia's most famous languages. So the question is which of the following Australian slang terms does not derive from an Aboriginal language? Your options are a bang, meaning dead broken or no longer functioning B kabba, meaning mate or sea yakka, meaning work.
Speaker 0 00:26:00 I gonna say Kaba because to me that's got a very British chime. I also remembered miles, Franklin. My career goes bang, which I love that title, but I think it's Cobra. I
Speaker 2 00:26:11 Think it's competency, but in fairness, I think I have to go for a, because I think we decided we went, led to pick the same one. I know it's not yakka. I know yakker is definitely from an Aboriginal language. Um, you know, so let the record state, I think it's Kaba, but I'm going to go with bum. That was extremely ungracious. Wasn't it?
Speaker 5 00:26:31 Well, you're going to regret not saying it was first class because you're correct. It is indeed Kaaba. And do you
Speaker 0 00:26:37 Know what the etymology of that is?
Speaker 5 00:26:40 Yeah, so the origin is not completely clear. It's kind of hard sometimes to track the etymology of slang words because they usually exist only are really for a long time before they're written down. But the best etymology I could find was that it comes from the Yiddish word, quaver, meaning comrade, um, and this most likely came to Australia via migrants from London who would have picked the wet up from the Yiddish community in east London. Most likely.
Speaker 0 00:27:10 I love how you see language traveling around the world.
Speaker 5 00:27:12 Yeah. There are actually a few different Yiddish slang terms that have migrated to Australia, like lotsa to make a month, uh <inaudible> meaning trunk to put the muzzle on someone and also shemozzle, which is one of my favorites. Love a good
Speaker 0 00:27:29 Shemozzle Hey comma, do you know which indigenous language yakka actually comes from?
Speaker 5 00:27:34 Yeah. So yakka and bung actually both come from the same indigenous language. So they're both from <inaudible>, which is from the Brisbane area and bung mains did, and yakka Maine's work. So they pretty literal translations.
Speaker 2 00:27:49 We were talking this morning about whether or not authors should use slang in their books and w when they might use it. And why.
Speaker 5 00:27:56 Yeah. So it is a tricky one, uh, because using slang in your work gives it a sense of authenticity. Like we were talking about before, it can give you a sense of belonging. So that can be the same for your readers. If they're part of a particular subculture, and they're reading a book that's about this subculture, but it can be really tricky because you have to know what you're talking about. It can sound really obvious that you're an outsider, especially if you haven't done your research and it can date very quickly. I was talking to one of our children's authors just recently, actually, who said that a lot of children's authors don't even include any slang in their work at all, because it can just put your work out of date in a couple of years, you're talking
Speaker 2 00:28:42 About it, giving a sense of belonging, but I think there are instances when slang can be excluding of the Raider or excluding of certain groups as well.
Speaker 5 00:28:52 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As well. If you're using slang from marginalized groups, often it can be a form of appropriation, which you want to avoid. I think the most important thing is just to know your audience, if you are a part of that group, you'll know what's appropriate to use when, so if you're not sure the context of what you should use a particular slang term in, maybe you should avoid it.
Speaker 0 00:29:17 So Claire, from a marketing perspective, would you be thinking about an author's particular register?
Speaker 2 00:29:24 I think what I struggled with within marketing is when we're doing social media, the registers between age groups, you know, making it fun, but also not making it exclusive to one age group is quite a difficult one from a marketing perspective. And the other thing I'm really struggling with at the moment is, um, lines to the horizon where there's quite a bit of surf speak. And you want to, you want to use that and be fun with that, but you don't want to do it in a really, um, inauthentic way.
Speaker 0 00:29:53 And from an editing perspective, actually that collection of surf writing, it was really important for me that the, the language used there was the author zone. Even if I didn't understand it, I either looked for ways to contextualize it or lent into it because I knew that a lot of the readers will be people who love surfing and love to surf, or just want the general feel and flavor of authenticity, even if they're not fully across all the terms welcomer is that it? Thank you for having me see you next time.
Speaker 2 00:30:41 Well, next time, I'm really looking forward to us sharing the booksellers perspective. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 0 00:30:46 In the next episode, we're going to be joined by Leanne hall who works for readings in Melbourne. And if you've ever wondered exactly why it's important for writers to have great relationships with their booksellers tune in next time,
Speaker 2 00:31:02 It was great to have you with us today on the how to be an author podcast. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite app. So you never miss an episode to discuss anything raised on today's podcast. Join us on the, how to be an author in Australia Facebook group, you'll be able to discuss the ins and outs of writing with other writers and with us along with many of the contributors to the book, Georgia wrote with Deborah Hunt, how to be an author. The business of being a writer in Australia is available from Fremantle, press.com.edu, and at all good bookstores. See you next time.
