Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Welcome to the how to be an author in Australia podcast. This is a podcast for writers who want to become published authors. We promise to go behind the scenes in the book industry, talking to people who love books, just as much as we do. I'm George Richter. And this is my co-host Claire Miller. And later we'll be joined by the comma chameleon who will hit us with a quiz from the editing world. So Claire what's coming up today. Today,
Speaker 1 00:00:48 We're going to be talking about all things bookshops. Our special guests will be Leanne hall of readings in Melbourne. And the reason why we've actually got a bookseller, that's a quality in the store is because they just have so many different aspects to their business.
Speaker 0 00:01:01 I think you're right. I think readings is really the quintessential modern bookstore.
Speaker 1 00:01:05 Yeah. We really want to give, right. There's a sense of what it is that bookstores do and how important it is for them to be a part of the bookshop community. So Claire, are you
Speaker 2 00:01:13 Having a relationship with a local bookstore
Speaker 1 00:01:17 New edition? I get down there every six weeks. I look hot when I walk in the store because every six weeks I also get a haircut and then I walked two doors down to new edition and hang out with them. And I'm the annoying customer that sits cross-legged on the floor and only looks at the bottom shelf. But I,
Speaker 0 00:01:33 I love bookshops actually, where you can sit on the floor. I think it's important to be comfortable in a bookshop. And I also like it when the book seller knows your name, Sinclair, I've been in your house and you have a beautiful arrangement on your bookshelves. The last time I saw it was, it was the spectrum, the color spectrum, how do you choose, what do you want, what you want to read, you choose by the color of the cover.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 She had this period where I just chose by color. And it was because I could not find a book that I really loved from just reading the blurb. So I thought stuff, it I'm just going to go into new edition. I'm going to choose everything. That's hot pink. And I'm going to walk out of the store with hot pink books. And it was one of the best things I've ever done because I got this diverse range of authors. I got people from Africa and Japan and all over the world. And so it really broadened my horizons in terms of what I was reading. Um, and so I, then I tried neon yellow.
Speaker 0 00:02:24 So I've heard quite a lot of naughty stories about authors who are very excited by having their book in a bookshop and they go in and they put it face out or they move it. So it's much more prominent, I guess you've heard those stories too.
Speaker 1 00:02:37 Um, I do exactly the same thing as a publisher and booksellers know that you're doing that. Um, but there are some lines you shouldn't cross as a writer. You really shouldn't be demanding to know why your book isn't on the shelf. Um, often it probably is on the shelf. It might be in the wrong spot or in the spot that you don't expect for instance. Um, so be nice to your local booksellers, everybody. Um, I know that with Kelly can be, she's got this really, um, highlights video on our Instagram at the moment at Fremantle press, where she's gone into Dimmick Subiaco and video this and said to the girl, um, have you got any good books for ages nought to five? He is a good book. As she pulls out little light and puts it into the camera. He's a good book, kind of getting her to recommend her own, her own title. Kelly's also known for making fake recommendations up and putting them out under the books shelf talkers like a shelf talker recommended by the, by the bookseller, things like that. That's pretty crappy. That is crappy
Speaker 0 00:03:33 And creative, which you'd expect from writers. And I sometimes suspect that booksellers actually know a lot more about what the author is doing than the author thinks they do.
Speaker 1 00:03:42 I don't think we can just creep in. I think, I think people do know let's zoom up Leanne hall and ask her. Then
Speaker 0 00:03:48 Leanne hall is an author of young adult and children's fiction her day, boo WIA novel. This is shyness won the text prize for children's and young adult writing and her novel for younger readers, RS and the tiger one. The Patricia writes and prize for children's literature. Leanne works as an online children's and way specialist at the independent bookshop readings. Hello and welcome. Hi,
Speaker 1 00:04:13 Look, new authors sometimes believe that you're just sitting in the back of the shop, drinking whiskey, being rude to customers and reading books. Um, what does a real day in the life of a bookseller look like? Um,
Speaker 3 00:04:25 There's kind of more of an office environment which has marketing and buying. That's also the warehouse that's got receiving by a Lauder online order. So me I'm mostly based in the office, which means at home at the moment, but, um, can may now hit office. There is a lot of coffee drinking. I won't lie a little coffee drinking medicating and just eight hours of if they're talking about books or having a head down over a computer. Yeah. And I have also worked a lot in the shop floor and the typical day would involve some shelving, some tiding, some, a lot of talking to customers, um, because I'm a kid specialist, a lot of speaking to young children, grandparents, parents, librarians, it's one of the most balanced jobs I can think of really.
Speaker 0 00:05:10 It does sound lovely to be surrounded by books. Uh, when, when Claire and I lived in Melbourne, my local was readings in Carlton and Claire's was Eckland street in St. Kilda, but there are more reading scores. Aren't there,
Speaker 3 00:05:24 There are. Yeah, we've got quite a few shots now. So there's, Melvin's and killed a horse on the site lobby Carlton. We've got a separate kitchen pickup now, which is next door to our Culton store. Um, and we've got a Doncaster shop, which is, um, more of a shopping center environment, which was really new for us to go into a Westfield shopping center and have a shop there. Um, but it's a beautiful shop, um, and does really well. And
Speaker 1 00:05:50 What are you doing to adjust to COVID? Are you concentrating more on the website side of the business at the moment?
Speaker 3 00:05:59 Uh, it's sort of a balance really. We've just pretty much had to roll with the punches. No one has ever experienced this situation before. So we really just had to make things up as we went, try to make really wise decisions, pedal as fast as possible. So at the moment it's predominantly an online environment. People are either buying books through our website. They're also emailing orders signing through orders. We still have a few old school customers that love to mail orders in. Um, so that's something that still happens, which is just gorgeous. Um, and we also operate, um, offering a click and collect, um, service from, from all of our shops, but that is definitely restricted by the government restrictions. So customers have to be within a five kilometer radius. So it's a real hodgepodge. We also experimented with local deliveries by a bike, um, mark we're boat. We're showing up on people's doorsteps, um, with bags full of books. Um, so yeah, it's been a real mix. We've just had to adapt to every single stage of the situation.
Speaker 0 00:07:07 Aspiring writers may wonder how it is that a published book actually finds its way into a bookshop. Can you describe this process for us and whether or not that process differs for a self-published writer?
Speaker 3 00:07:20 Yeah, so it is a little bit different readings does take books on consignment, which means that we do stock, um, quite a few self published books. Um, I work predominantly in the kids and why environment. There's some really, really beautiful self published books done for children and teenagers. These days, I would say in the past might be people didn't seem as savvy about the design and production side of stills publishing, but that has actually really, really changed in the last couple of years. People are very, very savvy about their self publishing in the kids. And why area in terms of an aspiring rod, knowing how a book arrives in our shop, obviously for a lot of aspiring writers, you know, there'll be a focus is trying to get published and trying to get their first book published. But once the publisher gets the book ready, they will have a distribution arrangement with somebody.
Speaker 3 00:08:10 They might have their own distributor. If they're a smaller publisher, they might, um, have a distribution arrangement with a larger distributor. Um, that distributor will usually have sales reps. And basically, um, I think the most awful thing that an aspiring writer could ever say is one of the, um, fill in meetings or buy in meetings that we do with reps where a rep or trot through, uh, an entire list at breakneck speed, trying to crab as much information as possible about each and every one of what can potentially be hundreds of titles, if it's a big list. And so, you know, your book might get 10 to 20 seconds, you know, in front of a buyer or meeting. And then we do rely on a lot of other things. Um, I know myself, you know, I see a lot of books on Twitter and Instagram. I really pay attention to what's coming out from various different publishers. You start to develop your favorite publishers. So the publishers, you know, publish really interesting things or publishing into a niche area that, that you were particularly interested in. So I think there's quite a few different channels, but really for a bricks and mortar bookshop, you know, it's, it's very traditional thing of a distributor, a sales rep,
Speaker 1 00:09:21 A buyer, and how much competition is there. It sounds like there's a lot of competition. If just one sales rep is running you through a hundred titles.
Speaker 3 00:09:28 Yeah. They, there is a lot of competition and, you know, back when I started, which was, you know, a long time ago now it was a bit it's about 11 years. So it used to be a lot more specialist kids, sales reps, but I've noticed as the year has gone on, there are more general sales reps that, um, handle the entire list from adult titles through to books for babies. And so I had noticed that each salesman has their own particular area of interest that they might actually just naturally hook onto a little bit more. Um, so a lot depends on that, I think, but there is a lot of competition. So I think really it comes down to actually being, having a short and snappy way to have your book pitched to a potential buyer. So it's quite competitive. I think
Speaker 1 00:10:15 The other end, how long does it stay on the bookshelves because they don't stay on there and definitely they don't stay on there necessarily till they sell either. Do they?
Speaker 3 00:10:22 No. I mean, that's the other horrifying thing is that, you know, you do know that a book gets a month for its moment in the sun where it's going to be ordered in a stack of like, you know, big stack. It's going to be face out on a new release table or a new release shelf. Um, maybe it'll get two months max if it's selling really strongly. Um, and then it'll be back to sort of maybe two spied out on the shelf. Um, so that window is quite small. I feel like it's a little bit different ratings because we are an independent bookshop and each bookshop has its own type of customer and our in particular flavor. And also the tastes of the staff that work on the shop floor really influenced what's displayed what gets hand sold and recommended. So I feel like we're a bit lucky in that if we really liked something, we can, we can really keep the spotlight on it for a good three to four months. And then we highlighted at the end of the year in our best off list. So our yearly band ups. So I feel really lucky about that. And we get to focus really on Australian titles as well. We're really supportive of Australian authors and we get very excited by Australian books. So I feel like we've got the ability to really focus attention for much longer, especially on books that we regard as offering a really fresh perspective or coming from like an underrepresented voice in publishing. We like to put those books forward.
Speaker 0 00:11:47 So that's booksellers from your perspective can be quite influential for an author as to how sales go again, if I'm an aspiring writer and I'm hoping to get a book published down the track, I am assuming I'm wise to start building up my relationship with my local book shop in advance of that. Would you agree that that relationship is important?
Speaker 3 00:12:08 I think that would be a great relationship to foster in non COVID times. The best thing you can do when you've got a day pupil cat is to have a big, lovely book launch with everyone, you know, there at a local book shop. I think that that can often lead to the most like personally satisfying results for an author like emotionally, but also sales wise as well. Um, you can organize with your local bookshop to do signed copies, um, to do little extra bits of point of sale that maybe not every bookshop would want to have. You can organize displays with them. You can offer like a Storytime or another sort of event. I also think it's a really useful relationship to have, because I think a lot of aspiring writers perhaps find it difficult to know about the market that they're trying to write into.
Speaker 3 00:12:57 And I think maybe the market is not necessarily what is on all aspiring writers minds when they're writing a book, which is partially as it should be. But I do find that I hear a lot of things that indicate that maybe aspiring writers haven't done as much mock research as they should. And it's not that I think that those should be at the really crass and write very commercially, but it's just something about knowing how to pitch to the right age group. What type of book is kind of common for what sort of age group, what format that book is in, what topic illustrations are common in, in for that age group? What are the word lengths? If you chat to a local book seller, you can actually find out about all the different publishers out there that book seller will actually have an idea about what sort of books that publisher publishers.
Speaker 3 00:13:41 So when it comes to submitting to a publisher, you actually have a much better idea about where you should try first, where, where your book should be positioned and which publisher is most likely to be receptive to the type of books that you've written. So, because I know aspiring writers come into ratings all the time and ask us for advice, and it's such a good thing to do because we just get out piles of books and show them different publishers. Um, and, and, you know, we've been told by, by writers that that's a really helpful thing for them to have done. Are there certain
Speaker 1 00:14:11 Times of the year or when you really shouldn't be contacted,
Speaker 3 00:14:16 Please don't please don't do that at Christmas. I would say, I would say from about October to November on you would, so you're probably not going to get a book seller with as much time on their hands as usual, January, February is a great time. Maybe not in school holidays. Yeah. But any other time, you know, I th I would say that, that we would be more than happy to get to you, but that's a good point. Understanding kind of the rhythms of the publishing here is helpful as well.
Speaker 0 00:14:40 And I guess then a writer might perhaps at that time of the year, be a reader and a supporter of the, the bookshop itself and the community around a bookshop.
Speaker 3 00:14:50 That's I guess another important thing as well as a good thing for, um, aspiring writers to do is to build a community before they actually publish. And I feel like we're really lucky in Australia that there's really, really support supportive young adult and children's book community amongst local authors, even across states, you know, via social media, people really support each other. They go to each other's launches, they retweet each other. They, they posted on Instagram when they're reading each other's books. And if you already do that work for published authors, if you show published authors that you're really interested in their books and you're buying and, and reading their books and talking about them online, when you have a book out, those authors will notice, you know, that they'll have noticed you they'll be grateful to you and they'll recognize your name. And knowing that you're a really keen reader and supporter of Australian books, and they will also naturally send love your way. I think a lot of people cringe with the idea of really kind of, you know, networking in this really sort of callous calculated sort of way. And it doesn't have to be like that. It can be a beautiful, natural and organic thing. Most writers have writing because they love books. They genuinely love writing, and I love books. So if you just act accordingly, you know, demonstrate your passion, that it'll come back to you for sure.
Speaker 1 00:16:11 And does that include events coming along to events? Tell us about your annual event program. Well,
Speaker 3 00:16:17 If it program is actually even more crowded with COVID times, because it's so much easier just to pop into a zoom book launch, um, in any state really, and, you know, you don't have to get dressed, you don't have to press your hair, you can eat your dinner while you're doing it. Um, so I've actually been going to a lot of online events and launches, but during non COVID times, I would also, I guess I'm lucky because I work at readings and I live reasonably locally, you know, a little bit of a bike ride away. So it's very easy to, to drop in. And you know what, also staff members are asked occasionally to host launches and host events at readings. So I'll often take up some of those duties, we'll share the duties amongst the various different booksellers. It's a really lovely thing to do because reading a book is a very solid Kennedy, a very solitary thing. So it's nice to get you a little dose of social life. So going to book events, you meet your people at those things. You know, a lot of book writers are very shy and introverted and maybe don't feel as conversational or as naturally, um, into social situations. But a book event can be a beautiful way to socialize with other people that have similar personality. And you
Speaker 0 00:17:25 Also have, uh, the readings prizes, don't you Leanne. So how do authors get their books entered into them?
Speaker 3 00:17:32 We try to get all eligible books. We try to notice all eligible books ourselves. So we really pay attention every month to what's new and coming out publishers that do know that we run those prizes do also kind of let us know what we have coming up. And also Stu also contact us to check if they're eligible or not. And if they are eligible, we can then contact their publisher and get them to send in some books. They've been such a wonderful thing to do. There's always such a buzz in our office when we are about to announce a shortlist or a winner at any one of the three readings prizes. It's a really enjoyable thing for us to do as well.
Speaker 0 00:18:14 You've also got the, uh, publication readings monthly, and that, that goes out to hundreds of thousands of subscribers. So I'm thinking that authors might be keen to know how they would get their books featured in there. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 00:18:27 Yeah. We get a little contact for most of us who are keen and unfortunately we use it usually for safe, the contact when it's too late for us. Like we, we work, um, a lot in advance on the ratings monthly. So I would say that, you know, most decisions are actually made when sales are at publishers are trying to sell their books into the shop. So usually three to four months beforehand, um, I would say the best way for an also to do it is to actually speak to your publisher really early on when you're having a book out to let them know that that that's one of your desires, you know, your heartfelt desire to be, have a review in the ratings monthly and get the publisher to, to put it on their schedule of things that they should approach well in advance, because we do often receive that contact and it's, you know, we feel bad, but it's often a little bit too late for us to make decisions on that. Would
Speaker 0 00:19:25 You say that, uh, booksellers have a role in shaping national conversations about the issues of, uh, of the day?
Speaker 3 00:19:34 I think there's been a lot of discussion this year, but how political did bookshops get and some bookshops, and we've been watching this overseas and in Australia, some book shops take very strong political stance on things and at other stores, um, we try to promote the books and the interests and the values that our customers hold. Um, and I'd like to think that we're reasonably accurate about that. I really believe in promoting marginalized and underrepresented voices and I'm kind of unashamed in doing that and it's my personal interest and passionate as well. So I do think I put a lot of effort into that and perhaps that does shape the customers, but I also feel that there's a lot of genuine interest from customers themselves because they come in and ask us these questions. So what we have to be able to answer the questions. And so I think it's very much like a give and take situation.
Speaker 1 00:20:28 You just described what you most love about your day job. Is that correct?
Speaker 3 00:20:32 I I'd say so, but also just getting to be a big, massive book nerd and not hide it, perhaps with friends outside the industry, they might be like Kylie. Yet, if you talked about books for a good 20 minutes, now let's move on to something else. Whereas within ratings, you know, you could talk about books for eight hours a day and everyone's really into it. So that's, that's good, but I guess the other thing, as well as I just really love having conversations with customers and in particular young customers, there's nothing more refreshing than getting stuck into a good solid conversation with an eight year old about what they like and dislike. And they they've got their likes and dislikes run so deep. You just, they've got opinions about illustrations, colors, fonts, words, types of stories, characters like, and they'll, they'll let you know all about it if you ask.
Speaker 0 00:21:26 Well, thanks slammed for, uh, talking to us about books and, and your love of book selling. It's been really valuable having your thoughts and insights.
Speaker 3 00:21:36 Thank you so much for your excellent questions. I think booksellers are a little bit stuffed to get interviewed, and we've got this mysterious job that we don't get asked about very often. So it's just such a pleasure to have somebody so interested and ask so many detailed questions about a mysterious job
Speaker 1 00:21:51 That was Leanne ho from readings books in Melbourne.
Speaker 0 00:21:59 My name is Sasha Wellesley, and I'm one of the authors who contributed to the book, how to be an author, the business of being a writer in Australia. My next book is spring clean for the page queen out in April, 2021. Today, I'm providing you with my best tip for aspiring writers. And here it is, if you get writer's block partway through a work, it's probably time to sit down and do some behind the scenes work. This has because you've probably hit a plot or character problem. You need to work out how to move logically to the next plot point or do some character work to better understand your characters, motivations. It's time for the common chameleon, our mill Davies to put us through our editorial paces I'm well, how
Speaker 3 00:22:58 Are you? Yeah. Good. Thanks yourselves. Good. What's your topic this week? Well, today I chose the topic of punctuation and symbols because I'm not just a word nerd, but a love of any and all forms of communication. And I particularly love punctuation symbols for the way that they can communicate complex ideas with economy and style like a lot of things to do with language. We tend to think that punctuation is static and permanent. Like it's been ordained by a higher power, but the system that we use today was only really put into common usage in the 15th century with the advent of the printing press, uh, when letterforms was simplified and rating was made more widely accessible. So people needed a system to understand sentence structure quickly while they were reading their heads. So what
Speaker 0 00:23:46 Was there before that calmer?
Speaker 3 00:23:49 Well, various systems of punctuation came and went the very first being a system of dots used by the Greek librarian era Stephanie's of by D by Santiam in the third century BC to show various pause link. It's a full that old was in written text, run together with no words, bases or capital letters to distinguish between the middle. It was like a nightmare.
Speaker 0 00:24:10 So what, what, uh, what horrible quiz question have you devised for us out of punctuation?
Speaker 3 00:24:17 Well, here we go. Which of the following is not a punctuation mark or other symbol used in writing? Is it a B in terror? Bang B the Octo, Thor, or C the Contra punked. I, uh,
Speaker 0 00:24:34 I have a passing acquaintance with the in-utero bang. Are you saying it's never used or it's never, it just doesn't exist at all.
Speaker 3 00:24:43 Yeah, that it just doesn't exist. It. Okay. So
Speaker 0 00:24:45 I'm thinking the interrobang is the one, that's the combination of the question mark and the exclamation mark, the Octo thought rings a bell, but I'm not sure what bell it's ringing. Do you have any thoughts?
Speaker 1 00:24:58 I think number C what was number C? That to me rings a bell.
Speaker 3 00:25:02 That was the Contra punked Contra.
Speaker 1 00:25:05 That sort of sounds like it rings a bell, but then she could have just put a few things together, uh, back myself. And I'm gonna rule out B Octo. What's the face
Speaker 0 00:25:16 Octothorp well, I guess I feel obliged to go with B, but I have a horrible feeling that you're right. And it's the Contra Punkt.
Speaker 1 00:25:25 Yeah, it sounds suspicious. Doesn't it maybe ask, can I swap mine? Maybe I'll go see you did go see. Did I guys say, I thought I wouldn't be okay. I'm going
Speaker 0 00:25:34 To the Octa punk and Claire's going the contract. <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:25:41 Definitely. No, I've just made up a fourth. Can I go the occupant? Cause I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1 00:25:55 I'm going, number six, I'm going literacy. And I'm going be
Speaker 3 00:26:00 All right. Well, Claire is correct again.
Speaker 0 00:26:05 So our go on, what are they?
Speaker 3 00:26:07 Well, Julia is quite rut. The interrobang is a combination of a question mark and an exclamation mark over a single point. Um, and it was invented by an American advertising executive in the 1960s to convey incredulity or ask a question in an excited manner or even a rhetorical question. And because he thought it was more economical and aesthetically pleasing to use on billboards, instead of separate to question and explanation maps,
Speaker 0 00:26:37 It really took off. Did it? I'm guessing since it's not there,
Speaker 3 00:26:43 It didn't at all. Uh, it's not very widely used anymore, but it was used in a federal court judgment in Australia in 2018. So you can look it up and see it there on the internet.
Speaker 1 00:26:54 What was it useful? What was the sentence?
Speaker 3 00:26:57 Uh, or it was a defamation case between my life, them and Osman for key. And it was in the opening address. And I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was some general musings on the LOL. So you can go and look it up if you want it.
Speaker 0 00:27:11 All right. So the Octo punk, no, the Octa thought, sorry,
Speaker 3 00:27:15 The Okta I thought is actually just another name for the hash symbol or pound sign, which has a lot of other names as well. The name of <inaudible> was created in the 1960s as well by a company called bell labs, which developed the touch-tone telephone. And it was reportedly formed by combining Octo for the eight points of the mark. And so after Jim <inaudible>, who was the first native American to win a gold medal at an Olympic games, the obvious combination, but just people actually know the hash symbol now as a hashtag because Twitter and it's also used to denote ordinal numbers, or sometimes things like sizes or types like a number two pencil, for example.
Speaker 0 00:28:01 Yeah. I remember, I remember that little button on the touch phone back in the eighties,
Speaker 1 00:28:07 When we first got touch phones, we were telling Chloe the other day we were describing how you used to be able to find people and you'd have to go round the circle. I've seen it in the movies. You've seen it in the movies.
Speaker 0 00:28:22 Excellent. So much for emergencies. It took about half an hour to phone. Anyone,
Speaker 1 00:28:28 Are you finding hashtags or Okta thoughts coming up in your manuscripts more these days?
Speaker 3 00:28:35 Yeah, we do have some hashtags in manuscripts. Uh, for example, recently we had made to hashtag me too. So you have to check that the hashtag is correct against Twitter and make sure it's capitalized correctly, et cetera.
Speaker 0 00:28:52 So the old contract punk punk
Speaker 3 00:28:57 Punk,
Speaker 0 00:28:58 Is this some devious thing you've come up with?
Speaker 3 00:29:02 Yeah, I just made it up. I just combined two was that sounded like they could possibly be punctuation and obviously it works.
Speaker 1 00:29:12 It certainly tricked the editor in the room here. Thanks so much ML.
Speaker 0 00:29:15 Thanks, Kama chameleon. That was to the point as always. Can't wait to see what she comes up with next time. And
Speaker 1 00:29:21 Speaking of next time, I'm really excited to have two sales reps on the podcast. I don't think it's ever been done before. Jane Park
Speaker 0 00:29:30 Hill and Kevin Burbage of penguin random house will be joining us to talk about how you get, how they get your published book into bookshops.
Speaker 1 00:29:40 It was great to have with us today on the how to be an author podcast. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite app. So you never miss an episode to discuss anything raised on today's podcast. Join us on the how to be an author in Australia Facebook group, you'll be able to discuss the ins and outs of writing with other writers and with us along with many of the contributors to the book, Georgia wrote with Deborah Hunt, how to be an author. The business of being a writer in Australia is available from Fremantle, press.com.edu, U N at all. Good bookstores. See you next time.
